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Brexit the very real risk to women's working rights.

73 replies

Tomtomato · 12/06/2016 20:46

Brexit the very real risk to women's working rights.
I work as a Human Resources Consultant, while not an employment lawyer i do have a good understanding.
There seems to be a lot of misleading information on social media concerning Brexit or Not.
In my view the EU has done a considerable amount to improve the lives of working women (see the bottom of this post) and a lot of this is at great risk if we leave the EU.
I don't wish to tell you how to vote, but all women really need to know what they're voting for.

This is a very good summary of what's at risk
touchstoneblog.org.uk/2016/05/10-top-brexiteers-explain-theyre-danger-rights-work/

While in some instance, UK rights are better than EU rights, the EU rights underpin those rights. Employment law is very complex, which is why it is easy to confuse people. Take the EU rights away and there is nothing to stop UK rights being water-down or abolished.
Most at risk are rights for part time workers, agency workers which particularly affects women and TUPE. If you trust Gove & IDS not to privatise your hospital or academic your schools, and leave the TUPE rights along, you're a lot more trustworthy than me.

There is a meme going round on social media which proclaims the wonders of British rights, it has Union Jacks on it. Brexiters hold it to their chest like a lucky talisman, but it is misleading, confusing and fundamentally incorrect. Here a QC Sean Jones rebuts it.

medium.com/@seanjones11kbw/i-logged-into-twitter-and-someone-had-posted-this-image-into-my-timeline-5596de6f6311#.socgzp8c2
If you imagine the worst case scenario of IDS, Gove and Boris, the threat of a wilful removal of hard won rights will be slashed. Please read this
Listen out every time you hear the words being competitive, or EU Red Tape, these are your rights.

www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2016/06/525326.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Here is a summary from Institute of Personnel and Development
www.cipd.co.uk/hr-resources/voice/04/real-impact-eu-uk-employment.aspx?utm_medium=email&utm_source=cipd&utm_campaign=cipdupdate&utm_term=945986&utm_content=270416-5725-9747--20160427084831-the%20likely%20impact%20of%20a%20%E2%80%98leave%E2%80%99%20vote%20on%20employment%20law

A significant body of employment law in the UK that derives from the EU, and over the past decades this has affected workers’ rights across the economy. For individual rights the main areas include working time and annual holidays, rights for women (for example equal pay), family friendly policies (for example pregnant workers, parental leave and so on), anti-discrimination legislation (for example equal treatment) and atypical workers (for example agency workers). For collective rights, there are three main legislative areas: collective redundancies and TUPE, European Works Councils, and information and consultation.

The Working Time Directive is one of the most high-profile elements of EU-derived law affecting employment – before it was transposed into UK law, UK workers did not have a statutory right to paid annual holiday. The directive ensured that all workers should be entitled to at least 20 days of paid annual holiday, but the UK government increased this entitlement to 28 days including bank holidays. However, one of the other main provisions – that a worker’s working week would be limited to 48 hours – is subject to an opt out in the UK.

One of the most important areas of employment rights affected by European legislation is the equal treatment rights of what are often termed “atypical workers” in Brussels. This includes equal treatment for part-time workers, those on fixed-term contracts and temporary agency workers in terms of pay and basic conditions of employment. The latter came into force through the Temporary Agency Workers Directive, although the equal treatment provision regarding pay only applies to UK temporary agency workers after 13 weeks as opposed to the first day as stated in the Directive. It is likely that many UK workers who are agency workers or who work part-time in the public sector are directly affected by this legislation from the EU.

Typically, European law is initiated in Brussels through directives and, once agreed, transposed into national legislation across all of the member states. EU-derived law has been incorporated into UK law using a range of legal approaches including secondary legislation under the European Communities Act 1972 (for example TUPE) as well as through acts of Parliament (for example, the Equality Act).

OP posts:
WordGetsAround · 13/06/2016 14:45

We go over and above what the EU demands, so why on earth would leaving the EU impact our working rights?

EBearhug · 13/06/2016 15:47

the chances of any political party lobbying to remove women's rights is 0.

The changes made to tribunals in recent years has massively reduced the number of tribunals relating to the least powerful workers, whow are disproportionately women. So indirectly, it's already happening, and they already got reelected. I think anyone who thinks they won't go further if they think they can get away with it is naive; however, I don't think that will change whether we're part of Europe or not.

OurBlanche · 13/06/2016 15:51

OP wasn't talking about the indirect sneaky sit, though.

And hopefully, whatever the EU result, people will get off their arses and vote in the next General Election. The erosion of workers rights is not just a women's issue... don't say it is or OP and their ilk will be blaming women for it!

80Kgirl · 13/06/2016 16:02

I think you may have "jumped the shark" OP. There are valid reasons to vote remain, fear over women's rights isn't one of them for me for all the reasons explained by other posters.

LurkingHusband · 13/06/2016 16:38

To remove such rights would require a change in the law, and any government that did so would pretty much guarantee they wouldn't be re-elected.

Like any government that increased tuition fees would not be re-elected either ? Oh, hang on ...

grimbletart · 13/06/2016 17:11

Seems to me that the EU protection of workers' rights is not working very well in France at the moment where, according to the workers, the Socialist government is trying to dismantle them. So, not much help from the EU there.

QueenLaBeefah · 13/06/2016 17:46

How much has the EU helped women on minimum wage, zero hour contracts?

AnnaForbes · 13/06/2016 18:36

Collective bargaining is the method unions use to negotiate fair wages and working conditions. Collective bargaining was suspended as a condition of EU bailouts in Ireland, Portugal and Greece. The EU is no friend of trade unions or of workers.

Jelliedeels · 13/06/2016 18:40

Scaremongering at its best !

I'm a woman

I vote leave

BusStopBetty · 13/06/2016 19:12

Rather than ridiculing concern, can any of the leavers tell me what will happen post brexit?

Winterbiscuit · 13/06/2016 19:21

can any of the leavers tell me what will happen post brexit?

No, there are no hard facts about the future because none of us have a crystal ball, but exactly the same is true about the remain side.

Britain will be what we make it. Our country has the creativity, ingenuity and hard-working people to move forward in our own democratic country. We'll be able to put our energies back into building up the UK, instead of unwillingly being pulled along by a failing EU that still wants to become a superstate.

BusStopBetty · 13/06/2016 19:43

Why not though? Would be really rather helpful if both sides could actually set out their plans for the future rather than making vague statements.

branofthemist · 13/06/2016 20:10

Why not though? Would be really rather helpful if both sides could actually set out their plans for the future rather than making vague statements.

Neither side can. That's the problem. Either way no one knows what will happen.

Remain have no plans, just carry on as is.

No one can say with 100% what will happen if we leave.

FarAwayHills · 13/06/2016 20:19

This government is doing everything it can to try to privatise the NHS and education by the back door. I don't trust Mr Gove one bit and given his track record goodness knows what him and his Tory cronies would do with free reign more power outside the EU.

HildurOdegard · 13/06/2016 20:31

I'm a woman who has worked in six EU countries.

ALL countries are eroding workers' rights - having a government that we the people can shape will aid is further than mandates which can be abused by employers.

You are very naive to think that the eu is going to protect your rights as an employee - male or female.

I'm brexit.

Pangurban1 · 13/06/2016 20:49

"Britain will be what we make it. Our country has the creativity, ingenuity and hard-working people to move forward in our own democratic country. We'll be able to put our energies back into building up the UK, instead of unwillingly being pulled along by a failing EU that still wants to become a superstate."

What a load of nonsense. Just empty rhetoric. Divert to this if asked anything real or specific. Or throw out stock words like 'scaremongering', 'elites' etc. Then you don't properly answer or respond to anything. Completely avoids properly or honestly discussing the issues.

There are lots of meaningless posts like this. It is like empty white noise clogging up threads.

FarAwayHills · 13/06/2016 21:18

While I agree with much of the sentiment expressed by those who want leave, I am voting remain. For a while I was swept along by the notion that all would be wonderful if only we could get rid of the EU. But the truth is no one knows and the leave side cannot give any certainty.

I don't want uncertainty. I dont want to risk another recession. I don't want DH to loose his job as he did before. I don't want to risk loosing my job (there will be job losses in my industry and this has been acknowledged by the leave side)
I'm female, I'm an EU citizen, part time worker so things aren't stacked in my favour.

These things worry me more than anything else because the bottom line is, if we can't work to the pay bills and feed the kids then it doesn't matter who's in charge of making laws about straight cucumbers.

HermioneWeasley · 13/06/2016 21:23

EU Legislation is also responsible for the most burdensome employment legislation as well. In fact, it is the madness that comes out of the ECJ that makes me want to vote leave.

caroldecker · 13/06/2016 21:57

faraway there is plenty of uncertainty about Remain. We have no idea what the EU may do over the next few years. Those who voted for remain last time to support the 'status quo' have seen huge changes within the EU, and those changes will continue, for good or ill.

LeaveTheRoundAbout · 13/06/2016 22:06

Yes, biggest fear would be our country was told to REDUCE our maternity leave to the EU minimum to be line with rest of Europe. EU could eventually see this as something covered in the Treaty to be addressed ie. to remove an unfair advantage of one member state over another in attracting better quality staff etc. EU are charged with removing competition (to make everything "fair") which is why the whole area is in a dire state.

Kathleen Morrison, professional support lawyer at Brodies LLP, told the Independent.
She said it is more likely that exit from the EU will lead to “occasional tinkering around the edges” for certain rights.

"Unlikely to change

Maternity pay:
UK maternity rights already far exceed the EU’s minimum requirements, providing 52 weeks’ maternity leave as opposed to the EU minimum of 14 weeks, so any reduction seems doubtful.

Holiday pay:
Basic holiday provision is also unlikely to be a target for significant reform, given that the UK again exceeds the EU minimum providing 5.6 weeks’ holiday as opposed the EU minimum of four weeks.

Discrimination:
The EU outlaws discrimination based on sex, pregnancy or maternity, race, religion or belief, disability, age, sexual orientation and gender reassignment. It also requires equal pay for men and women. Any change to these rules would be extremely unpopular in the UK.

At risk
Holiday entitlement for those off sick: the Government would be free to make changes to the right of workers on sick or maternity leave to carry their unused holiday entitlement to anothCommission and overtime: A future government might also seek to exclude payments such as commission and overtime from holiday pay, contrary to recent changes at EU level.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/eu-referendum-workers-employee-rights-maternity-sick-holiday-leave-pay-a6889226.html

LeaveTheRoundAbout · 13/06/2016 22:18

Any change to workers' rights requires “UK parliamentary approval” (see link above).

Therefore, as we hope to live in a democracy after the “leave” vote, if we don’t agree with a law then we vote that government out at the next election and elect a government with a manifesto we do want. We can also lobby for a law we do want. Unlike EU, where we as the electorate are unable to do any of these things.

That's what is scary. If the EU decided to implent a levelling of all workers' rights and our maternity pay etc was reduced to the EU's minimums, we would have no voice.

The commission have the "right of initiative" with no manifesto. They put proposals before the EU Parliament and Council for discussion.

I don't understand why people believe someone that you didn't elect in Europe is best to make changes in law for you.

It should be noted that Labour governments up until 1978 hadn’t thought to bring in these particular workers’ rights either.

No British government is going to get away with reducing maternity rights if they wish to be elected. You have no say if the EU utilise treaty to move to level employment playing field.

ProfessorPreciseaBug · 13/06/2016 22:29

Equal pay and womens rights are a good thing to be sure..
But when competing with unlimited supply of cheap labour arriving from E Europe it is the overall wage rate that counts to the employer who is paying the wage bill.

So yes you can have equal pay to an E European working for minimum wage and sharing a room for a highly skilled job. But can you afford to live on that sort of money? And is that where you want your children to live?

LeaveTheRoundAbout · 13/06/2016 22:33

Hildur: spot on. The creep effect eroding rights is happening under people's noses, and some can't see.

Democracy - the right to elect and dismiss our elected representatives - is to some - "white noise".

girlinacoma · 13/06/2016 22:54

Do people really believe that the rights we currently enjoy are only as a result of of our EU membership?

It's utter bollocks to think that without the EU we would be still sitting in the dark ages.

BusStopBetty

I can tell you exactly what will happen post -brexit.

The UK newspapers will have a fit and publicise sensationalist headlines. The pound will fall and this will probably have an effect on global markets.

The UK Government will undergo significant changes with ongoing leadership battles and it's anyone guess at that point which twit (of the very many twits available), will win the race.

Merkel will shake her head at us with disappointment and predict all manner of doom and gloom scenarios and French farmers will go and burn something (probably sheep).

For a while, it will seem a bit scary and they'll be some uncertainty and we will wonder whether we have done the right thing.

But then, it will all start to settle and fade away. The papers will find something more interesting to talk about. The markets will stabilise and life will essentially go on pretty much as it has before.

In 5, 10, 15 years time however we will all thank the fucking heavens that we got out when we did. When the French and Italian economy's hit the skids, the immigration crises reaches levels beyond anything we could currently comprehend and the TTIP deal with the States gets underway.

Vote OUT

BusStopBetty · 13/06/2016 22:58

Thanks, but that isn't really an answer.