Term time holidays - minister orders schools to continue to fine parents

[KateMumsnet]

Hello all

More news on the fraught question of term-time holidays.

You might remember that a recent high court ruling overturned a fine imposed on a parent who'd taken their child out of school for a family holiday. Today, however, schools minister Nick Gibb has ordered headteachers to continue to fine families whose children are absent without permission during term time.

Do let us know what you think - and if you're completely confuzzled and bewildered, we've got more information on what's what over here.

Why don't these rules apply to independent schools, many of which have longer holidays anyway? Does the education act not apply to them?
Yes, Bran. Go see a personal injury solicitor and get the ball rolling.

Because they're independent! In theory they could refer parents for failing to ensure their DC attend regularly. But when you're paying £5k a term you probably want every day to count.

The various Education Acts put a responsibility on parents to ensure their DC receive an education, at school or elsewhere. Not that they must be sent to state schools. Nor that independent schools must follow a particular schedule in line with state schools. Fines, BTW, were introduced in the early 00s in the Antisocial Behaviour Act.

My DCs school highlight the highest achieving, in terms of attendance, classes for the week through newsletters.

I think this is great - more recognition for DCs in school then attention for those out of school!

Out of interest, do MNetters think penalty notices have a place for other absences - school refusal, truanting, just not bothering to send kids in, high levels of absence where parents cite illness but with no medical condition?

Threats of penalties creates an antagonistic relationship between parents & the school system. Not sure how that's a good thing.

Some indie schools threaten to expel kids if their parents dare to take a term time holiday.

Nor that independent schools must follow a particular schedule in line with state schools.

wealthy public school kids are people too. if it's such a sky falling disaster to miss two days of primary school for state school children, I chuckle as I write that it's so laughable, then surely it's also a disaster for independent schools.

What part of the argument put forth by the government doesn't apply to independent schools?

I can't believe the blase attitude to education on here.

I can't believe the narrow vision of education here.

Why don't these rules apply to independent schools, many of which have longer holidays anyway? Does the education act not apply to them?

There are two independents schools close to me. Both have a longer working day (0800-1700) and one has Saturday morning school too (0900-1300). By working a longer day they get to give longer holidays - an extra week in the summer, another at Christmas and long weekends once a term.

They do the same amount of hours as state schools, just using them more efficiently.

'What part of the argument put forth by the government doesn't apply to independent schools?'

It does apply. Heads can authorise term-time holidays or not, in exactly the same way as state school heads.

And can choose from a range of sanctions, including the one unavailable to state schools of just slinging poor attenders out. And they can refer for fines if they wish.

There are two independents schools close to me. Both have a longer working day (0800-1700)

somehow I doubt making 5-11 year olds work 9 hours a day is more efficient. in fact, my guess is that it is counter productive.

For instance, schools could have the homework pack that goes on 'holiday/medical' absences and if that has not been completed and handed in to the school within a week of returning, THEN fine them or register it as UA.

More and more schools are using online systems, such as show my homework and other kinds of VLEs. If all the homework is posted properly onto the SMH system and worksheets, powerpoint presentations, etc., are loaded onto the VLE, then it's no more work for the teachers - the responsibility for ensuring that the work gets done can easily be passed to the child/parent. All the teachers, HOD's need to do is ensure that the VLE's are kept up to date.

I know the appeal is specifically about Jon Platt's case

So far, yes - but let's not forget he's now offering to use his company to represent other parents, for a fee no doubt: www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-36458529

Perhaps objection to the fine wasn't his only motivation in refusing to pay?

somehow I doubt making 5-11 year olds work 9 hours a day is more efficient. in fact, my guess is that it is counter productive

Well both have 'exceptional' and 'outstanding' ISI reports, so whatever they are doing they are doing it bloody well.

The fines are ridiculous. First: Attendance figures should not include absence for illness or other medical reasons. Anything else penalises schools for having DC who require hospital appointments (SEN, disability, chronic illness, other medical) and encourages DC to attend with colds, flus and D&V illnesses- which can be very serious in other DC at the school with asthma or compromised immune systems. It's terrible public health practice. We shouldn't tolerate a government policy that leads to head teachers praising children for coming to school ill (I have seen this in a school that is "good" and which we're very happy with).

Term time holidays to connect with family, have great experiences etc are fine. Persistent truancy is NOT fine. They are different. We need to recognise that and treat them differently.

It is incredibly offensive that these draconian and controlling rules don't apply to independent schools. The reason is presumably that they think independent school families are doing lovely educational things -- they can be trusted, they're "people like us" to policy-makers. But the rest of us are just fruit shoot gulping slobs who can't be trusted to educate their DC without a fine. It's classism and snobbery. We should not tolerate it. If it's so certain to be a life-altering education-undermining disaster for my DC to miss a week or two of school (for a skiing holiday in the Alps or a trip to Canada for little state-educated Tarquin!) that attendance gets enshrined in LAW, then it should be exactly the same penalty-level disaster for the independent-school DC down the road.

And - if we are to be subject to fines, then schools had better have the resources to make every single day an unmissable educational experience, as unforgettable and educational every day as that trip to India for a wedding the DC will have to miss. And they had better not sit about watching a film for the last few days of any term. Ever.
Apologies for the long rant.

One thing I've noticed is that the independent sector has a totally opposite approach to education in comparison to state.

State seems to say 'We can't do that can we?'
Independent says 'How can we do that?'

And it doesn't always have to revolve around having money although it often helps. It often requires just a little bit of imagination and ambition.

I hate that you have to pay twice for a level of education that should be provided as standard.

But the rest of us are just fruit shoot gulping slobs who can't be trusted to educate their DC without a fine. It's classism and snobbery.

I used to be an independent school parent, we are now state. I am neither a slob or a snob.

Speechless!

And there's nothing wrong with wanting the best, in fact I judge those who don't care about the standard of their DC's education because it is the biggest thing that matters. I know of parents who care more about the kid's gadgets than the school they send the DCs to. My 4 share 1 iPad because there are more important things to spend the money on.

And they had better not sit about watching a film for the last few days of any term.

Exactly this! The education system needs to get it's own house in order. If every single day of school is so important as they say, then they need to do some proper education, every lesson, every day. At my son's school, the sheer number of wasted lessons due to teacher absence, or teacher doing something else (like marking external exam papers), especially for the last few weeks of the Summer term is ridiculous. Even at the start and middle of terms, teachers don't seem to have a second thought when THEY have to mid lessons due to school trips, inter-school sports competitions, meetings, etc., leaving non-subject cover teachers who either just hand out a scrappy worksheet, put on a video or let the kids play on their phones all lesson.

I have to agree with a previous poster that I never see agreement with these fines in RL. Only here on MN. Not sure why that it is to be honest. It seems at odds with a site that is well known for questioning the status quo in so many other ways. I have seen unnecessary fear and kowtowing to this legislation and often misunderstanding. When I do I am always sure to let that person know that I have taken my child out for a holiday annually since reception and never been fined or even warned.

My friend is a teacher - was primary, now secondary - her words "these fines are a pile of sh*t, oh and you can put SATS on that pile too". I don't know a single teacher in RL who doesn't agree with her including HT.

I do think at some point this ridiculous law will be abolished and wonder how the fear mongering both here and by those in authority will be justified then.

@inamess24 I did not IN ANY WAY mean to suggest that this is my own attitude! I'm just very offended at the implicit idea that state-educating parents are not to be trusted (and need fines etc in place to ensure their children receive an education) while independent schools don't have to do this bullshit. "speechless" is an entirely appropriate response to that attitude, which I think is implicit in the current rule structure.
I hope that came through in my post.

death I got what you were saying. From the way you used 'us'.

And I do agree with your point.

Also I think part of the "how can we do that" vs "we can't do that" attitude is down to institutional culture and different (state and indep) schools differ. Part of it, though, is down to how overstretched you are. If you have a bit of spare capacity, probably more likely in an independent, it's easier to envision how you'd change and to be optimistic about new ideas.
The state sector needs better funding and less tinkering. All this tinkering with curriculum, with SATS, with levels or no levels, with changing rules around academies if they really were committed to improving education they'd spend that money paying teachers well well enough to bring lots of talented people into the field -- and ensuring teachers are in an environment where they can put their energy into teaching. That would mean all those talented people stayed teaching rather than burning out!

Badbadbunny

Are teachers not allowed to be ill?

I take it that your children don't go on the trips or sporting events?

When do you expect teachers to be trained?

As for marking papers the majority of it is online and I know of no school that would allow what is essentially a second job to take place whilst the teachers are supposed to be teaching.

As for cover work I agree, it should be relevant and of a good quality.

Are teachers not allowed to be ill?
I'd say there is a huge amount of pressure for teachers not to be off sick...

Attendance figures should not include absence for illness or other medical reasons

In principle I agree - but then I read the frequent comments on these threads to the effect of "just say they were ill" and start to wonder if that has something to do with it

It's sadly the same as ever: the few complete pisstakers who think it's never them, oh no, it's always somebody else the rules were designed for spoil it for everyone else

Well both have 'exceptional' and 'outstanding' ISI reports, so whatever they are doing they are doing it bloody well.

They may be doing something right, but I doubt that is making children stay for 9 hours a day. Curious, the standard work day is shorter, but somehow children can handle 9 hours.

How do we know they wouldn't do even better using the obvious improvement of having a shorter work day? Don't those children matter just as much as my state school children? I am so glad the government is at least there to look after my children.