Term time holidays - minister orders schools to continue to fine parents

[KateMumsnet]

Hello all

More news on the fraught question of term-time holidays.

You might remember that a recent high court ruling overturned a fine imposed on a parent who'd taken their child out of school for a family holiday. Today, however, schools minister Nick Gibb has ordered headteachers to continue to fine families whose children are absent without permission during term time.

Do let us know what you think - and if you're completely confuzzled and bewildered, we've got more information on what's what over here.

Nocitrus- you won't get a fine until it meets the criteria based on number of sessions missed. So if you a clever about it, and your child's attendance is good near perfect then you can go away fine free, and certainlyattend weddings, funerals etc. We also authorise parts of requests but not the whole thing. As mentioned before, it so depends on your school/LA...

HTs are still authorising, just not as much.

My kids go to different schools neither will authorise anything.

Dd had an accident and got taken to a&e with in minutes of getting school one day, due to their damaged fence. They insisted she went to a&e. It went down as unauthorised absence. And try as I might I can not get it removed.

"And claiming they aren't allowed to authorise."

This is, I think, the central issue.

The law allows HT's to use their discretion. They are allowed to authorise.

So why aren't they? Some do. All could.

Bran - id formally complain then about the a&e visit... I struggle to believe that. Unless you are talking of subsequent days?

Bran - id formally complain then about the a&e visit... I struggle to believe that. Unless you are talking of subsequent days?

Nope. One day. She has had two days off sick all year. Once she threw up, on a Friday, so was clear to go back on the Monday.

The other was this. I did complain, they insist she was there and they don't auto rise any absence.

Which shows that some schools are recording absence unfairly. Therefore fines are being given out unfairly. Because some HT are choosing to record absence in these ways.

How can a legal requirement be so vague and so easy for each head teacher to make their own interpretation?

The legal requirement being vague is why Platt won his case. The main issue with that being the dead certainty that the rules are going to be tightened up - so things are going to get worse, not better.

Schools should only put an O (unauthorised absence with no reason) or a G (absence requested but unauthorised).

If a child is sick (I), has a medical appointment (M), is educated off site (B) or has a bereavement/other compassionate reason (C) it shouldn't count for absence stats - BUT IT DOES. That's one of the problems. There should be a differentiation between an "Absence from school" and a "Non-Attendance due to X"

Parents may not care about their child's attendance stats, but unfortunately it has a very real and very negative effect on the school. Regular absences with push a school way down, no matter how good a school really is. HT's have to be SEEN to be doing something - it's wrong. But parents getting shitty with schools about it is wrong too.

We need to get mad with the Government, not the schools.

Parents may not care about their child's attendance stats, but unfortunately it has a very real and very negative effect on the school. Regular absences with push a school way down, no matter how good a school really is. HT's have to be SEEN to be doing something - it's wrong. But parents getting shitty with schools about it is wrong too.
This exactly!

Bran - that is ridiculous, and I'm surprised if they can unauthorise by default. They can't ask for medical evidence without reasoning grounds (although this in itself is open to interpretation..) so seems odd. Am out so can't run off to read official guidance..
The school must have shocking attendance to implement something like that?

If every day matters why do they make schools be polling stations and let teachers have lots of days towards the end of term on films, fun etc. Not against fun, but maybe knackered children would benefit more from family hols?

Absence should be noted in an ofsted report but not count towards overall results.

Bran.... Ask you school to inform their insurers that you will be making a personal injury claim in relation to the injury suffered by your dd in relation to their damaged fence when they had a duty of care.

A fall in absence rates doesn't mean outcomes are better...just that some children are seeing extended family less...

A fall in absence rates doesn't mean outcomes are better...just that some children are seeing extended family less...

Yes, and have a look the child mental health situation if you think things are going well now the absence stats have improved.

We need to get mad with the Government, not the schools.

This ^. Schools are trying to survive in the ridiculous assessment culture just like children. The whole system is insane and pupils and teachers alike are suffering.

Everyone I have ever spoken to about this in real life is totally dismayed and angry about these draconian rules.

It's only ever on MN that I ever see people, albeit in relatively small numbers, supporting this policy.

I wonder if the govt ever really considers the sheer numbers of people that they're pissing off unnecessarily...

I can't believe the blase attitude to education on here. Education is a privilege, and we should treat the free education this country provides with more respect. Children in other parts of the world walk miles and risk getting shot at to go to school whereas we seem to see education as something totally disposable.
And arguing that family holidays are 'educational' is ridiculous, unless you are truly exposing them to the real side of the country you're visiting, rather than just its tourist resorts....

We need more respect for the gifts of learning and teaching, and we need to be passing this respect on to our children.

People like harrowgreen perhaps, FieryWill?

My ds is in year 8 and has aspergers and has been going through a particularly difficult time lately.
I booked a holiday abroad based on the half term dates for dd primary school published on the council website. Both dc schools are in the same LA, ds school had one week and dd had two, the holiday was booked for the first week when ds was still due at school.
His attendance is just below 90 percent and I wrote a letter to the head and was completely honest and when we got back from holiday there was a letter from school saying they had authorised ds absence! I was amazed.
School has recently converted to an academy so not sure if that made any difference. I priced the same holiday the week later and it was more than double.
The holiday companies are going to struggle soon as so many schools have different holidays now, only universal ones seem to be 6 weeks summer and 2 weeks Christmas.
It's so wrong that people cannot afford to go in July/august due to extortionate costs.

Although there are many valid points made by many posters I am somewhat concerned that the shyster minister is perpetuating the myth that HTs and schools fine parents.

I've taken my primary school aged children out of school for only one day so far, this was will full support of the head. I took them to Leicester to see Richard lll funeral and the events around it. I would have really loved to be in court with the LA arguing that I was damaging their education. I would have taken them out of school to see the GB Olympic team parade but it was the very first day of school for one of mine.

I think they need to leave this to the discretion of the Head, I think most of the time they can make sensible decisions. I suppose the only problem is that this leaves the Head in the firing line. Interestingly, the best performing primary school locally refuses all holiday absence requests, even if you just want to take them out a couple of hours early.

Which would suggest that outcomes have improved considerably since 2003. Is this the case prh47bridge?

of course not. This is just a way to make it look like they are doing something while making parents' lives more inconvenient.

I can't believe the blase attitude to education on here.

Perhaps others have a broader view of education than you? I for one believe in teaching my children the importance of family (after all, I'm hoping they will help look after me in old age!).

And fining people is not the way to gain respect for education. Perhaps the government could lead by example and show a little respect for education instead of constantly cutting budgets, badmouthing the teaching profession and meddling with provision for political gains.

I have experience of the independent sector and the state sector.

My Dad sent a letter to my school when he took me out for our holidays, requesting a work pack that would cover the week we would be away. It was a policy of the school that if a child would be missing school for whatever reason, a pack of work would be provided to cover the duration. I remember doing my work in the evenings when I got back to the hotel room (we're talking almost 30 years ago now because I am now THAT old!!!!

DD went to independent, I asked if I could take her out for 2 days as I was going to Malta on a business trip. The HT was more than happy about it and thought it would be a fantastic experience for her. I also requested to take her out to Monkey World for her brother's first birthday (as we had done for her first birthday) and again, more than happy to let her go as they saw this as very educational.

DD and DS now go to state school and they are far less flexible. DD had a break from June-November where she wasn't registered and we were home educating her but DS went to school in September due to his SEN.
Due to our circumstances, the school have been pretty good. DD has had a few days off due to sickness, which has usually been on a Monday (not happy at school), so, because of the school's sickness policy, she has to be clear 48hrs....... Not once have the school sent work home for her though so it's good that we have provisions to help her at home. But it is still a major disruption as she is falling behind due to their own policy!!!

Oh, and to those stating "FREE" education NHS, etc, it is NOT free! We still pay for it, that's why it is so infuriating to then be fined for following the rules. I don't think fining parents who request absence is the right thing to do, it is the ones who don't bother to take an active interest in their children's education that need focussing on. For instance, schools could have the homework pack that goes on 'holiday/medical' absences and if that has not been completed and handed in to the school within a week of returning, THEN fine them or register it as UA.

The fact no-one has thought of this kinda indicates that the government is just in it for the money.

The school must have shocking attendance to implement something like that?

nope it has great attendance. However people end up sending their kids to school, when they shouldn't be there.

Bran.... Ask you school to inform their insurers that you will be making a personal injury claim in relation to the injury suffered by your dd in relation to their damaged fence when they had a duty of care.

Can I do that now? Months after the event?

I can't believe the blase attitude to education on here. Education is a privilege, and we should treat the free education this country provides with more respect. Children in other parts of the world walk miles and risk getting shot at to go to school whereas we seem to see education as something totally disposable.
And arguing that family holidays are 'educational' is ridiculous, unless you are truly exposing them to the real side of the country you're visiting, rather than just its tourist resorts....

Firstly, I don't have a blase attitude. It's hypocritical, for the school to get my Dd to miss many days for their events and do admin jobs. And say every day of missed learning is damaging.

The 'kids have to walk miles to school and get shot at' is ridiculous and has no baring on education in this country.

And yes when we go away we don't stay in resorts. My dds first language is English, her second is Greek and her third is Spanish.

Greek has been taught at home and developed on holidays. Especially when we stay in Zakynthos as the family who runs the villa are Greek and make a huge fuss of her.

She has been learning Spanish since reception and is now year 7. She couldn't hold a conversation with a Spanish person.

So yes our holidays are educational as in three years she has become fluent in Greek. But in almost 6 years (she was home schooled for a period) of learning Spanish in a classroom she knows enough to pass a test and that's it. So how has she learnt more in the classroom than out of it?

And I agree with pp, education does not only happen in the classroom.

I was with you up to this point littlemonkey

For instance, schools could have the homework pack that goes on 'holiday/medical' absences and if that has not been completed and handed in to the school within a week of returning, THEN fine them or register it as UA.

If you are going to take your child out of school for a reason that you deem to be more important than the work they would be covering in school that day then you need to own that, not expect already overstretched teachers to take time away from something else to provide a homework pack for every child that is absent at any point.