Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

I'm noticing a growing 'narrative' through the media that says we must stay IN to ensure if we leave the EU, that our workers are not stripped of their rights by a Tory Govt. Seems a rather facile argument when the Tories are increasing the minimum wage, and it also implies that these people think there will forever Tory govt. That's rather defeatist. These same people think TTIP is a U.S. / Cameron inspired plot to privatise the Health Service when it's actually a U.S. / EU initiative that we can only hope to opt of out parts of. If we left the EU we could ditch TTIP and make our own bilateral trade deals. The privatisation if the NHS, which peaked under Labour, needn't even be a consideration in any trade deal. So I see this as pure scare-mongering

Returning to EU membership fees. We contribute £55 million per day. These are accepted figures (nothing to do with UKIP by the way. Can't think why you think so ). The EU gives back £38 million a day to us and tells us how we can spend it e g £66m on west coast rail electrification. They can then nail nice shiny signs to the fences saying 'Provided by EU funding'. Which us a lie. It's also a very inefficient way to spend tax payers money by sending it to EU so they can return it to us. It's also an unacceptable constraint on a democratically elected Parlianent's right to vote it's tax payers funds in the way our Govt see fit

You're wrong about Ford. It relocated from Southampton to Turkey with £80million of EU grants. The EU funded Ford to take that industry from Britain. The Landrover plant in the UK recently closed because it could not meet EU emissions standards - neither could Volkswagons as they lied about the data, but they continue to be driven throughout Europe. Double standards

But these are all rather trivial examples of a much greater problem and that is the lack of sovereignty - a nation's unalienable right to govern itself. As Gove said when he was giving his reasons for wanting out 'every day Ministers would be told you can do this or you can't do that because of EU law' When Ministers state openly they are unable to govern the country in the way they were elected to, because the EU prevents it, then something is seriously wrong. The Minister for Human Rights is also promoting LEAVE

The EU is not thus cuddly, socially aware, benevolent organisation that many see it as. It can be brutal, as it showed when it punished and enskaved the Greeks for generations to come. When the 200,00 migrants currently wanting in Libyan ports to reach get better weather to enable them to sail to Italy arrive and when the current 4,000 migrants crossing from Turkey to Greece each day increases to 10,000 a day , we will see the brutality of the EU again as thousands are penned against wire border fences while the EU politicians scratch their heads and wring their hands in the absence of any true leadership.

I'm leaving

Amouselivedinawindmill

Yes, Merkel did make that decision on her own. That is exactly what I am saying. She made it is as the leader of an individual European nation. When she did so, Germany became the first EU country to suspend an EU 1990 protocol (Dublin Treaty) which forces refugees to seek asylum in the first European country in which they set foot.

"There is no control, there is no sharing of information its utter chaos.
Its dangerous, its scary and no one has any control over it."

I totally agree with you and that is why we need a more coordinated approach and for the EU to exert imho, more control over these issues not less. But the individual Member States (including the UK) voted to retain individual competence in these areas. Result = the chaos you describe.

Europhiles will always tell you that the answer to an EU-created crisis is MOAR EU

I'm leaning towards out, mainly for economic reasons.

I'd be interested in knowing what the effect of leaving the EU would have on the immigration numbers for non EU citizens. Would more be "allowed in" if we left?

It has always frustrated me that, as a British citizen, my non-EU DH has to jump through numerous hoops and pay extortionate visa fees should we wish to settle in the UK, whereas a German couple for example can easily just up and move without securing jobs.

LEAVE, definitely. I don't want the UK to be part of such a chaotic organisation. All the hand wringing and arguments that seem to go on, but no clear solutions. I still find it almost unbelievable that Merkel encouraged migrants and refugees to come to Germany without thinking about the possible consequences for other countries, or for the migrants themselves.

Manatee

Springintoaction I'm glad we can agree on figures anyway, no matter what their source

And I totally agree with you that Greece (with regard to the issue of migrants) has been abandoned by other European nations in an utterly appalling and unjust matter.

We could argue for ages over the Ford factory. It is a controversial issue. But industry experts at the time reported that the writing - very sadly - was on the wall for the Southampton plant when the Koceali plant in Turkey began manufacturing the transit van over a decade ago. And Ford itself quoted cheaper manufacturing prices.

I haven't yet Gove's article yet, but will be very interested to do so.

For now, I think it is worth stating that if the UK enters in to agreements concerning trade or environment or security with any bodies such as the UN or WTO for example (which it will have to do if it leaves the EU) it can't help but soverignity issues.

We already, along with other members, suffer a loss of sovereignty (ie sovereignty of indiv nations is pooled) when we make an agreement with Nato for example.

For the record, I don't think the EU is the least bit cuddly. It has a lot of problems and could make huge improvements. But I personally think that it just makes sense to cooperate with others over global issues such as trade and environment. Yes sometimes a consensus means that one country will benefit and another will lose out. Over time everyone gets a fair-ish allocation. A fairer playing field across nations means (imho) stablity and far greater security in the longer term.

sorry - typing too fast - it can't help but encounter sovereignty issues

I haven't yet Gove's article yet, but will be very interested to do so.

Here's a link:

Michael Gove's statement

Thank you very much indeed Biscuit!

Sovereignty is compromised by membership of international organisations, sure. That's generally accepted as a reasonable cost of international cooperation. But it's doubly compromised when we are a member of a political union that takes membership of those organisations on our behalf, representing not just our interests but those of 27 other nations.

SquadGoals
Your question about non-EU immigration also interests me as one of my children has a non-EU partner and they wish to live in the UK. It is hugely complicated.

At present any of the 400 million EU citizens has the right to live in any EU country they choose. We cannot refuse them residence in the UK, hence Cameron's indirect attempts to limit EU migration to the UK by limiting UK benefits. If you are a non-EU citizen you have no automatic right to live in the UK and must apply for permission to do so, with no guarantee you will be granted it, even if you have close family members here, even if you are married to a British person. If your non-EU partner is already in the country they can apply for right to remain if your earning power is high enough but the Govt is planning to increase that threshold. I doubt the Govt would attempt to remove the non-EU partner of a Briton from the UK as, under Human Rights Law - right to a family life. If your non-EU partner us not already in the UK gaining right to reside is more difficult.

However any non-UK EU citizen has the right to move to the UK, and they also have the right to bring their partner, regardless if their partners nationality. So the non-EU partner of a non-UK migrant has right to reside in UK but non-EU partner of UK resident is not permitted to automatically reside in the UK. That discriminates against British people

Britons can get round this by going to live in another UK country for a period sufficient to establish residency say 3 months, and then they have the right as non-UK resident EU migrant to return to the UK and bring their non-EU partner with them to obtain right to reside in the UK for both of them. This is called the Surinder Singh loophole and Cameron's new deal will close it

Outside the EU the UK will be a sovereign country that can make its own immigration rules. It can decide who can live here and can attract the skills the country needs from all over the world. Those migrants who are already here have the right to stay.
Similarly, the EU countries can decide whether to let what will be non-EU Britons to live in their countries. Those already there have the right to stay. I cannot imagine a country like Spain booting out all the British pensioners who make a net contribution to the Spanish economy via their pensions, and occupy what would be otherwise empty homes and neither would they have the legal right to do do. Britain's have lived in foreign countries for centuries, Byron, Durrell, Greene etc. And foreigners have lived in Britain for centuries too. It's scare-mongering to suggest otherwise.

The only way to control immigration into the UK is to LEAVE.

Cameron has been trying to tie himself in knots to circumvent that fact. He will fail. The ECJ could over-rule his deal on migrant benefits as discriminatory. The European Parliament could also reject it
We are being asked to vote on something that could be over-turned. Cameron's 'deal' is still in legal terms an unratified wish list that could be changed AFTER a REMAIN vote

OHugeManatee
I totally agree. Our global influence is actually reduced as the EU speaks for us on the World stage. Merkel and Hollander met Putin last year re Ukraine crisis and will be meeting Turkish Erdogan next week. Where is Cameron? Where is the UN?

We could leave NATO, WHO, UN, IMF etc anytime our Government chooses too. Once we have entwined ourselves in political union with the EU we can never leave. The EU will be our Hotel California, as Greece discovered. And don't believe Cameron's promise that he's stopped ever closure Union, he hasn't. Every day more laws are sent to us from Brussels that bind us just a little bit more closely to that union and with more countries in talks to join our influence will be further diluted.

I don't trust the judgement if a woman like Merkel to negotiate on the world stage on my behalf. She's wrecked her country, she needs €38 billion to pay for her open door to migrants policy ( which will be raised by EU wide petrol tax and rise in corporation tax). Making us less competitive and unable to do anything about it

Trade YES. Cooperation YES.
Ever closer union by stealth, drop by drop every day we stay in the EU - NO.

Just skimmed through Gove's statement.
"Our democracy stood the test of time. We showed the world what a free people could achieve if they were allowed to govern themselves.
In Britain we established trial by jury in the modern world, we set up the first free parliament, we ensured no-one could be arbitrarily detained at the behest of the Government, we forced our rulers to recognise they ruled by consent not by right, we led the world in abolishing slavery, we established free education for all, national insurance, the National Health Service and a national broadcaster respected across the world.

By way of contrast, the European Union, despite the undoubted idealism of its founders and the good intentions of so many leaders, has proved a failure on so many fronts. The euro has created economic misery for Europe’s poorest people. European Union regulation has entrenched mass unemployment. EU immigration policies have encouraged people traffickers and brought desperate refugee camps to our borders"

How do these politicians get the bloody nerve?? Most of the things in that 'Great Britain' paragraph are gone or in the process of going, destroyed by the party he's helped. Free education? £9k tuition fees?? Gove do fuck off with your 'principles'. It's just political games for these bastards at the top. And no economic misery in Britain I presume, at least not for those who matter, eh?

Still pro-EU, still looking for a good reason for leaving.

Boris is coming out for LEAVE at 5pm. Crowds of journalists waiting outside his front door for an announcement. Motorists are abandoning their cars to go and watch.

Please tell me I'm not the only one who literally feels sick at Gove's blatant hypocrisy and lies. EU money goes on fancy buildings but the UK would invest it in science? What about the huge amount of EU funding for our research?

Jeez you'd think I'd be used to political crap. I really need to go throw up.

Well no surprise that Boris is putting his political ambitions before the good of the country

Manatee Spring
I think it is also reasonable when the other 27 member states involved in negotations, by definition, also lose a degree of "sovereignty" (for want of a better description in this context) in the process of negotiation and cooperation in order to reach a consensus that benefits all. Sometimes, negotating as a block can be more effective and efficient, thus promoting the needs of individual nations.

Anyway, as far as I am aware, there are very few international orgs in which the UK is represented by the EU, the WTO being one of the exceptions. Even here, the Member States are closely involving in agreeing the position followed by the EU.

In practice we cannot leave Nato or WHo, UN etc...‎ because these orgs are essential for global governance

We could however leave the EU... I do not think it would be good for us....

In some respects we have left the EU to pursue its long term goals some years ago... this is being confirmed by Cameron’s deal... we are in but different... .

I do not agree with you about Angela Merkel... .

Corp tax is not an issue for the EU.... and excise duties are not fixed by the EU.

Bungowongo

This is about much more than party politics. There are politicians who I cannot stand, like Dennis Skinner or Geirge Galloway, but whose views on the EU I share. We need to see beyond the person and examine their views on their merit. I don't belong to any political party. I was disenfranchised years ago

Slim
Boris has been saying for years that the EU was a basket case. It would have been hypnotical for him to back Cameron after saying in 2008
"The longer I stayed in Brussels - and I served 5 happy years - the more obvious it was that Europe would never work".
I have been following EU matters closely for years. Boris' decision was the natural conclusion to his previous essays on the subject. Don't tar him as an opportunist when he's held Eurosceptic views for many years. He had to follow his convictions and tell Emperor Cameron that he has no clothes. That takes courage. And he knows the EU well. His father was an MEP, he was the Daily Telegraph's Brussel's correspondent. His daughter is Belgian.

Actually we could leave NATO etc because we are not politically shackled to them as we are becoming to the EU. The difference is that we are free to leave those at any time, not that we want to.

Boris says his decision is about sovereignty. Cameron is changing the definition of 'sovereignty' as the 'ability to get things done'. Grayling and Gove say the EU actually prevents us from getting things done.

I believe in sovereignty. I don't think the surrender of sovereignty to the EU benefits us. It harms us and shackles us and, as Greece discovered, it will enslave us.

This is from Nov 2014, but I think it's unlikely that things have got significantly better in the last 15 months. EU auditors unable to sign off accounts due to inadequate controls over £millions of spending.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html

This is what Dave managed to get..

uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-factbox-idUKKCN0VS2SH

A reformed Europe?
I think not....

I agree with you Professor it was a smoke and mirrors exercise

Spring Another disenfranchised one here!! I think it could be argued that unfortunately Greece went a long way to enslaving itself (fiscally and financially anyway) although as I said before, I agree with you about them being horribly abandoned with regards to immigration.

I know about Boris's previous involvement with the EU and attendant views. I still don't doubt that he has weighed his decision up very carefully in the light of his future career prospects!

Hermione There are plenty of probs with the EU. There are plenty of probs with the UK, we are not immune to these sorts of issues either!
No one is saying that the EU is perfect and that there is no need for further rigorous work to development the EU. But the UK, rather than leave, should in my view focus its efforts on trying to improve things.

I will be voting in, because:

• Environmental regulations and workers rights are much stronger through being in the EU. With a different government perhaps they could be stronger out of the EU, but not with the Tories.
• The sector in which I work will be completely and utterly screwed if we leave the EU, and this is not just in a selfish way, it is most certainly a sector that contributes massively to society.
• Financial gains due to EU membership outweigh financial losses.

FWIW I think Cameron's 'deal' is bollocks, I would have rather seen TTIP challenged, refugee support, and tightening up on corporate tax. The EU is far from perfect but leaving it is worse.

Cameron's deal is just snake oil. It's not even legally binding. He's asking us to vote on something that can be changed AFTER we've voted. If it's subsequently changed by EP or ECJ, then what? Rerun the referendum or accept we've been conned and move on?

Cameron says his 'deal' has been agreed with other members and lodged with the UN. Denmark tried that approach once and found their 'deal' was worthless. Camerin may think he can square away the Heads of Givernment and the European Parliament but he cannot square away the judiciary - the European Court of Justice. They will see the benefits changes as discriminating against other EU members and strike down our 'deal'. Then what? Shrug our shoulders and move on? There could be a constitutional crisis over this.

What we are all failing to see is that, in the eyes if the EU there are no Britons. There are only EU citizens. Being born in Britain or gaining a British passport does not convey any extra right to you, in Britain, than any other EU citizen is entitled to enjoy. You cannot therefore nurture your industry by 'buying British' as the EU procurement rules prohibit that except in cases of national security.

I really don't understand why Cameron is bending over backwards trying to circumvent rules on free movement of people and lying to the UK when this 'deal' could all be achieved by leaving the EU. Even Caneron admits we'd survive outside it. The UK will always attract foreign investment because it is a stable place for investment. Germany is starting to look very unstable at present.

We have absolutely nothing to fear by leaving the EU. It's the biggest confidence truck that's ever been perpetrated on Britain. It's yesterday's solution to yesterday's problems. It's a dying corpse to which we are too frightened to unshackle ourselves

There is also supposed to be a minus 6 months proposal and referendum, according to the best practice. Cameton's ignoring that

I think this 'deal' will unravel. More Tory MPs have declared OUT than IN. There is to be a debate in Parliament tomorrow on the 'deal' and Caneron will need to rely on Labour and SNP MPs to carry his motion. I cannot see how he can continue to push his Emperor's clothes when he has effectively lost his own party, 6 of his cabinet, his Mayor of London and, according to some opinion polls, he's lost the country too

We live in interesting times unfortunately

Springing, thank you for your post. My mum's just been round and told me she's changed her mind because of what Cameron said. I was

I didn't see his points as being anything more than tidying up the conference table to hide the bit where the tablecloth hem is coming undone.

Spring, I said nothing about Boris, only about Gove. I accept that the EU question goes beyond party politics, but when you have politicians mouthing platitudes about how great Britain was because of x when their every action has been deliberately intended to destroy x, also strongly implying that it was somehow the EUs fault it makes me question not only their own intentions but the intention and real motivations behind the whole campaign. That statement of his presses a lot of populist buttons. None of them are accurate portrayals, or at least there's no evidence that they're accurate portrayals, of life without the more socialist EU.

Lorelei
Do you mean Cameron has persuaded her to remain in the EU?

BongoWomble

Yes, I know you were only talking about Gove. To be fair to Gove he did actually call for us to leave the EU last year, but as anyone saying that was still being labelled as a fruitcake at that time, there was no vehicle for him to pursue those beliefs. He took Ministerial roles and now has the conviction to admit that he was unable to be fully effective because his hands are tied by Brussels tape. There are many brown-nosers in the Cabinet who have declared themselves Eurosceptic but who, when they've been asked to chose have put career before country. They are the ones that disgust me.

Gove (and Boris) are telling us an inconvenient truth. That we cannot govern this country in the interests of the British while we are prevented from doing so by the EU. The EU experiment will result in one single European Superstate Unless we want that we must disengage at some point and let the others continue without us.

I am seriously terrified of staying in and having what little power we do have ever more diminished as more countries like Albania, Macedonia and Turkey join. I am scared of the international disputes the EU could draw us into and in which we could not vote against involvement. I am scared that so many EU citizens exercise their right to live in the EU that our services will not be able to cope. We are not increasing our school places, our hospital beds. our housing stock fast enough to accommodate them. If you live in an EU state that has no free Health Service you would be mad not to come to the UK for treatment. If you live in Poland for instance where they are only now considering free prescriptions for the over 65 and other healthcare is not free, you can see why they would like NHS treatment at no cost. We cannot have a free NHS with borders that are open to 400,00 million EU citizens, plus another 75 million when Turkey joins..

We also never stop to think about the effect of the EU on other countries. It limits the ability of Africa to trade with us - something China is exploiting. We are taking the brightest and the best from poor countries, We have schools being sold as residential housing in Eastern European countries as there populations have decreased by moving to more affluent EU countries.

There is more to life than a booming economy based on cramming as many people into a small metropolitan area as possible. There is also quality of life.

The whole EU experiment is a ghastly mistake that has led to misery throughout southern Europe while northern Europe exploits a cheap workforce. I really don't buy the idea that it provides a socialist utopia