Why should we stay/leave the EU?

[OhYouLuckyDuck]

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

In what way is your quality of life affected by the EU?

I have had to live next to a house full of EU migrants and it destroyed my quality of life. It wasnt just me who suffered, the other families living next door on our street ( about three houses on our road) all had dreadful time.

I think if we actually participated properly and wholeheartedly in Europe we might have a more positive view.

2014 European elections - less than 35% turnout - 24 out of 73 MEPs UKIP (we've come to tell you Europeans to fuck off) and a fair percentage of the rest will be gravy-trainers.

Has any member of the Kinnock family not got an EU pension for eternity?

We elect them - if we don't care about who we give the jobs to, that's what we'll keep getting, failed Westminster has-beens, retirees, fruit-cakes and greasy-palmers.

The EU accounts have been passed by the independent auditors every year since 2007 as accurate, legal, regular and reliable. Furthermore, the EU has no debt or borrowings and the books are always balanced every year. (From 1994 to 2004, the EU budget was subject to cash-based accounting. Improved accruals-based accounting was introduced in 2005. The European Court of Auditors gave qualified approval to accounts until 2006, and unqualified approval - 'clean' opinion - since 2007.)

It’s true that the auditors strongly criticised EU expenditure for having 4.7% of errors – these were essentially administrative mistakes, and specifically not fraud – but then, all government accounts across the world have a percentage of managerial errors. For example, in some recent years, the US government accounts had error rates higher than 5% - worse than the EU. In the UK, some government department budgets have error rates bigger than the EU budget. For example, according to the National Audit Office, Housing Benefit fraud and error has increased to 5.8%.

Almost all of the errors didn’t take place in Brussels at all, but by EU member states at national government level.

On a more serious note I couldn't give a shit who was on the same side as me in this one, fuckers or not, because on this issue I am so certain of how I feel and what I want.

OUT!
This

We have the third highest amount of MEPs after France and Germany and yet we constantly whinge that our voices aren't heard, we don't get what we want etc etc.

Why, it's a wonder anyone wants to be involved if even we feel like that, with all our seats.

Of course, the British view of that would be that all the other countries stay because WE'RE giving them every last brass farthing while they sit on their arses soaking up the sun or claiming OUR benefits.

Don't know how likely that is - really?

Either it's true that we're being ganged up against by all the other member states or there's something wrong with how we do things.

If you reference that to any other gathering of people and only one person - one of the biggest in the room - is whining that everyone else is picking on them... well, I don't know! ;-)

For yonks Britain has treated MEP seats like seats in the House of Lords - as a favour or gift to be dispensed to loyal servants - no work to do because Joe Public is kept pig bloody ignorant of what you could be doing and lots of lolly to be collected.

It's perhaps not part of the British psyche to take part - ne'er a joiner be, and all that.

Daphne how do you know low skilled workers would've worst off. Since 2004 when Blair et al said 13k poles would come to the Uk we've had more than 13k in Boston alone. Wages are lower in real terms with than they were in 2004. You can't get half of the jobs in produce factories or the fields as they sure advertised in Polish in Poland. Lincolnshire has changed. Beyond recognition.
Also 55m per day goes along way to address low wages among the low skilled.
As to not agreeing a trade deal we buy more than we sell from the EU. Even if they wanted to punish us would they really risk bmw and audi sales to prove a point as we can add the same trade tariffs to their products as they add to ours.

If we won't yo stay Cameron's deal with disappear as the courts will overturn the benefits deal and the other states won't ratify the other minor concessions.
Cameron asked for little and received even less.

The European Council is composed of the ministers of the member states – also your directly elected representatives.

Who represents the UK on the European Council and when did I elect them.

The fact that the European Parliament cannot initiate nor throw out any legislation is proof that it is not democratic. It is a rubber-stamp, a fig-leaf that attempts to portray the EU as democratic - it's not. Topretend is it is to try to perpetuate this lie and confidence trick that props up the EU.

The sight of Cameron, our elected Head of Government sitting with his begging bowl across a table pleading with Junckers and Tusk, both unelected and not democratically accountable made me feel physically sick.

OUT

"Who represents the UK on the European Council and when did I elect them?"

The ministers in the Westminster government, for example Cameron, our elected Head of Government.

Sorry - slipped up in previous email

Who represents the UK on the European Commission and when did I elect them?

That's the question I meant to ask, because you claim they are just the equivalent of the Civil Service but they are not.

Our EU Commissioner is Lord Hill, an ex Bell-Pottinger PR man, Cabinet appointee. appointed Life Peer, appointed EU Commissioner. We have never elected him, nor can we vote him out of office.

One of the first things he said on taking up appointment that he was not there to work for Britain, but to work for the EU.

That, to me is the democratic deficit.

The European Commission is the Civil Service – it is unelected, just like the UK Civil Service. In fact you might even argue there is more accountability as the Commissioners have to be approved by Parliament. The European Commission cannot pass laws; it does, like the UK Civil Service, implement legislation.

No. This might be a reasonable analogy if all Parliamentary legislation was proposed and drafted by the Civil Service, and only then passed to MPs rubber-stamp. But that's not how it works.

The European Commission is where the real power sits in the EU. The President of the EU Parliament is a mere diplomat, with no real executive power; the President of the Commission has the power to change things. And we can't vote him in or - more importantly - out, because he's a technocrat who does not take his mandate from the peoples of the EU.

If we vote to leave they'll be 2 years of exit terms anyway. Considering we're the worlds 5th biggest economy no one will cut their nose to spite their face. It'll mainly mean we will be able to vet the backgrounds and intentions of anyone wanting to come here. Right now we have absolutely no idea how many EU nationals are here with criminal records. We'll save £33 million a day (after rebates from £55 million paid per day) that'll go a way to improving healthcare etc. We'll be able to fill vacancies fairly according to skills rather than anyone with no skills coming here because they live in the EU. We'll control migration and relieve pressure on schools, roads, housing and healthcare. To vote leave for me is a no brainer. I don't want to be in the united states of Europe.

"Our EU Commissioner is Lord Hill, an ex Bell-Pottinger PR man, Cabinet appointee. appointed Life Peer, appointed EU Commissioner. We have never elected him, nor can we vote him out of office."

Just as you cannot vote any senior UK civil servant out of office.

"The European Commission is where the real power sits in the EU."

The Council is where the power lies

I get frustrated when people complain about having laws "imposed" on us by the EU when in fact many of the key rights and benefits achieved over the last few decades have been a direct result of European legislation or case law which have then become uk law. Our employment law, environmental law, human rights, legislation relating to discrimination on grounds of gender, race, sexuality and disability, equal pay, freedom of the press/libel/privacy laws, health and safety at work, animal welfare, food standards, freedom of movement, etc, etc would be far poorer without us having been a part of the European system. When people ask what has Europe ever done for us, they should consider the rights they enjoy every single day which are not available to many around the world.

Took this from a FB post, sorry, but this is what I think, and puts it much more eloquently than I could.

“What did the EU ever do for us?

In the week when the UK's five extremist right-wing media billionaires won their battle to waste our time, money and political capital on a EU referendum, I thought it a good time to post the great letter by Simon Sweeney in the Guardian, which he kindly allowed me to reproduce in my book, "The Prostitute State - How Britain's Democracy has Been Bought":

"What did the EU ever do for us?
Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;
structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;
clean beaches and rivers;
cleaner air;
lead free petrol;
restrictions on landfill dumping;
a recycling culture;
cheaper mobile charges;
cheaper air travel;
improved consumer protection and food labelling;
a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
better product safety;
single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
break up of monopolies;
Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;
access to European health services;
labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
smoke-free workplaces;
equal pay legislation;
holiday entitlement;
the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
strongest wildlife protection in the world;
improved animal welfare in food production;
EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
EU representation in international forums;
bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
European arrest warrant;
cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.
All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.
It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.
Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these. We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value. We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future.

Simon Sweeney,

Lecturer in international political economy, University of York"

For those who want 'more national sovereignty', looking at the way our government has looked after this country and it's people, I would rather their power was checked to be honest (and I mean the previous labour govt, as well as the coalition and mostly the current bunch who reckon the books must be balanced on the backs of the poor, purely for ideological reasons - the economy is actually being hurt rather than improved by this stance)

lljkk - the UK benefits from lots of bilateral agreements with areas/countries eg. Morocco and the EU made possible through years of negotiations and agreements with the European Union. For example with the Mediterranean region (something that UK could not have achieved on its own): ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/regions/euro-mediterranean-partnership/

There is no way we'll be allowed to be part of EEA without allowing freedom of movement. EU can't agree to that without letting Norway & Switzerland have same. Liechtenstein gets away with country-origin quotas for its work permit system only because they have popn of just 35,000, and their permits are also listed as a "temporary" system.

So I want to know what FTA conditions there are for Canada & Morocco with EU. Their models may be the nearest ones that can give Britain the immigration control The Outs say they demand. And then I would know better what I was voting about.

Also wonder when we'll start seeing random boats turning up on our shores stuffed full of desperate immigrants, Mediterranean style over-crowded deathtraps with no pilot but SatNAv set for Britain, having departed from France or wherever. Kind of surprised that hasn't happened already.

"The European Commission is where the real power sits in the EU."

The Council is where the power lies

No. The EU's executive is the European Commission.

The UK's executive is the Prime Minister, Cabinet, Parliament and only then the Civil Service, whose job it is to implement Ministers' decisions.

The equivalent would be the UK being governed by a permanent, unelected Civil Service, with the power of elected MPs restricted purely to rubber-stamping legislation proposed and prepared by that civil service.

If we hadn't been members of the EU, would we have had maternity pay and leave laws? Would we have minimum wage laws? I am asking a genuine question.

My concern is that if we leave the EU, then certain protection for workers here will be lost.

Am I misguided in my concerns?

There was a boat that took on the English channel recently. A few former Jungle residents, they sunk and we're rescued near France.

winky - The UK already had maternity leave laws before any EU involvement. The UK has had some provision for maternity leave since 1911. Eligibility rules were changed in 1993 in response to an EU directive but it's just not true that we'd have no provision without the EU.

Brief history here

Also, can you imagine how utterly toxic it'd be politically to try and rescind the laws we now have? Imagine how it'd play with the press: "ANTI-BUSINESS PM WANTS TO HALVE THE WORKFORCE BY FORCING MOTHERS OUT OF WORKPLACE". "THE PRIME MINISTER WHO HATES WOMEN AND FAMILIES". Not going to happen

The National Minimum Wage Act was a flagship New Labour policy in 1998 and had nothing to do with the EU.

Finally, if you want protection for workers, I'd treat the EU with some caution. They handed vast sums of money to Greece and Spain so they could pay back the French and German banks who'd lent them too much, then in exchange for that 'help' forced through brutal austerity measures that have caused untold misery to millions and intractable, long-term 40% youth unemployment across much of the southern EU.

Jaques Delors had a vision for a 'social EU'. But those days are long gone and today's EU acts in the interests of elites and big business, with only the thinnest fig-leaf of 'social' idealism to cover its indifference to the interests of ordinary people.

My concern is that if we leave the EU, then certain protection for workers here will be lost.

I think social attitudes have moved forwards a lot over the past few decades, and that there would be strong opposition if that was attempted.

....its indifference to the interests of ordinary people.

This bit here. I believe it also applies to our government. Rock and hard place then.

And when you talk of strong opposition, what kind of opposition? Strikes that are described as "holding London to ransom" etc.