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Why should we stay/leave the EU?

409 replies

OhYouLuckyDuck · 20/02/2016 12:36

What reasons are there for staying or leaving?
I think I will vote for us to stay as I think it might be a moderating influence on any government wanting to do things to extreme plus we will lose trade with Europe if we leave. I'm undecided though.

OP posts:
PigletJohn · 23/02/2016 23:43

"a free NHS that is open to 400,00 million EU citizens and will be open to millions more as the EU empire expands."

Bit of a scare story, that.

Most of them have a better one of their own.

I don't know what number you meant to type.

SpringingIntoAction · 23/02/2016 23:43

^"What did the EU ever do for us?

Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade;^

Silly statement. 45% of our trade is with the EU and declining. Some of that ;trade' is actually trade with the rest of the world but counted as EU trade because it passes through Rotterdam container port. The EU trades more with us than we do with them so is more dependant on us than we are on them.

^structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline;%

We give the EU £55 million a day and the EU deems whether it will give grants to support these areas. How about we cut out the EU middleman and use some of this £55m a day to support these areas directly? Oh, I forgot, the EU wouldn't be able to pin their little blue 'provided by the EU badge to it'.

clean beaches and rivers;
So we couldn't do this without the EU?

cleaner air;
We've been improving our own air quality since the days of smog-filled London. We could manage that without the EU. Clean Air Act.

lead free petrol;
We don't need the EU to dictate lead free petrol. We could legislate that for ourselves. However we do have German cars pumping out pollution in excess of the EU's emissions levels because they cheated the EU's own emission rules.

restrictions on landfill dumping;
Tell that to a Bulgarian local authority that dumps its waste in ravines.

a recycling culture;
Nonsense. I was recycling aluminium milk bottle tops and Corona bottles when I was at school. Have you never seen an old-fashioned 1970's Blue Peter Christmas Appeal?

cheaper mobile charges;
Competition between mobile companies is possible without EU legislation.

cheaper air travel;
Causing more air pollution, so negating the claim the EU has brought us cleaner air. Again, we did not need the EU to legislate on this.

improved consumer protection and food labelling;
Anyone who has studied contract or consumer law knows that these have been improving long before the EU felt it had to legislate.

a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives;
Food Standards have been improving since Elizabethan times. It did not require EU legislation.

better product safety;
We had product safety standards long before the EU. We had Kite marls and international standards. The TTIP legislation will now DECREASE product safety as pre TTIP anything that is manufactured has to meet proven safety standards, whereas post-TTIP, a product can be made without adhering to safety standards and it is for the consumer to prove it is NOT safe.

single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance;
The Single Market is the provided by the European Economic Area, not the European Union. It consists of markets in countries that are not full members of the EU. Does 'better industrial performance' include the steel production that has ceased in the UK because EU rules prevent the Government from protecting our domestic steel industry? Does it include the £80million that the EU paid Ford to relocate from its Southampton factory to a new factory in Turkey. Or the closure of the Landrover plant because it couldn't meet EU emissions standards - that German cars can also not meet, but cheat the consumer into thinking they do?

break up of monopolies;
No. Monopolies and mergers were investigated and prevented if against public interest by UK Govt long before we joined the EU. By the way, this EU legislation forced the break up of the Royal Mail and the closure of many rural Post Offices. I don't see that as a benefit of being in the UK.

Europe-wide patent and copyright protection;
Hardly a great benefit. Inventors and writers have been registering patents worldwide for years before the EU.

no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market;
Wrong There is a lot of paperwork. Believe me, I've had to raise it.

price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone;
Why do we need an EU to do that? Market forces prevail.

freedom to travel, live and work across Europe;
We've always had that. Ask Lord Byron, Gerald Durrell, Graham Green, Gracie Fields. They lived in Europe long before the EU was invented, And 'EUROPE is a continent. EUROPE is not the EU.

funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad;

If we were not paying £55million a day to the EU I expect we could fund a moreo pportunities for our own British students, here or abroad. British students have also studied at European Universities, long before the EU.

access to European health services;
Wrong. Access to basic health services within those countries that have a reciprocal agreement with us. You try strolling into a Swiss clinic and claiming access to 'European Health services'. The 'free' health services you obtain in other EU countries are actually funded by the UK Government under reciprocal agreements. These agrreements work both ways. Any of the 400,00 million EU citizens can use our NHS. The problem is that we don't recoup the cost from their Governements. We cannot continue to have a free NHS open to 400,00 million EU citizens. NHS or EU- your choice.

labour protection and enhanced social welfare;
Learn some British history We led the world in social welfare. Our welfare system is open to 400,00 million EU citizens. It cannot continue to provide thousands of pounds each year in in-work benefits to migrants who earn the minimum wage. You chose - controlled EU immigration that leads to the collapse of our welfare state or the EU?

smoke-free workplaces;
We could have legislated for that ourselves. we have led the world in health and safety at work standards for centuries.

equal pay legislation;
The Ford sewing machinists strike of 1968 was a landmark labour-relations dispute in the United Kingdom. It was a trigger cause of the passing of the Equal Pay Act 1970

holiday entitlement;
Sorry - we had holiday entitlement long before we joined the EU

the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime;
But junior doctors keep telling us they work 90 hours a week? How can that be?

strongest wildlife protection in the world;
They shoot bears in the Pyrenees. They shoot down migrating birds in Southern Europe. Peter Scott, UK Govt legislation and the WWF was protecting wildlife long before the EU.

improved animal welfare in food production;
Bull fighting is permitted. They throw donkeys off towers in Spain. Have you never seen a feral cat or dog colony in an EU country - they are prolific. Live exports are still permitted. Halal slaughter is permitted. The EU cannot make that claim.

EU-funded research and industrial collaboration;
Out of the £55million we give them each day and rebadged as EU funding. We do have our own Resaerch Councils in the UK. We have had more Nobel Prize wimmers than any country in the World and most of them before joining the EU.

EU representation in international forums;
Yes, it means that we must leave our seat on the World Trade Organisation empty while we are in the EU, so we can't make lucrative trade deals with other countries, because the EU prevents us from doing so. We have a permanent seat on the UN Security Council and so does France. Do you honestly think the EU will let us both keep our seats? No. So our influence in the world will reduce. Tell me why Britain cannot represent British interests at international forums? Briatain was a founder member of NATO, of the UN. It belongs to thousands of international organisations, EFTA, EEA, WHO, IMO, Red Cross etc and has represented itself quite successfully for decades without needing the EU to do it for us. Ask yourself - whose interests is the EU representing, ours of just 1/28 of ours as it represents all members EU states?

bloc EEA negotiation at the WTO;
Preventing us from occupying our seat on the WTO and preventing us making our own trade deals with the rest of the world. It took the EU 7 years to negotiate one trade deal. It took Iceland a matter of months to strike a trade deal with China. we want to be like Iceland. Iceland gets things done. The EU prevents us from trading freely.

EU diplomatic efforts to uphold the nuclear non-proliferation treaty;
Why do we need EU involvement? We are members of NATO and the IAEA. We can represent ourselves . The EU is supposedly not a country althout it does have legal entity.

European arrest warrant;
We had extradition treaties long before the EU. The European arrest Warrant brought to an end the centuries old right of habeas corpus - imprisonment without trial as any British person van now be sent abroad to any EU country that may have a legal system that is not as fair as our own. We saw a use of the EU Arrest Warrant when the parents of the child with a brain tumour who took him to Spain were imprisoned for doing so.
I do not see the European Arrest Warrant as anything to be proud of. It is a diminution of our rights as British people

cross border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling; counter terrorism intelligence;
Interpol. Global, not just European. we had trans-global cooperation on policing long before the EU.

European civil and military co-operation in post-conflict zones in Europe and Africa;
When I see a 'trading organisation' making military claims - I worry. We have NATO for this. We have our own Armed Forces. we have the UN. This is not the role of a trading organisation.

support for democracy and human rights across Europe and beyond;
Nothing new. we've been doing this for centuries before the EU. Does this 'democracy' include the overthrow of the Greek and Italian leaderships that the EU successfully achieved.? Does it include the Troika that dictate rules to the very cradle of democracy - Greece? I don't think the EU has anything to boast about in terms of 'democracy or human rights'.

investment across Europe contributing to better living standards and educational, social and cultural capital.

That has been the role of domestic governments since they existed. They did not need the EU to do it.

All of this is nothing compared with its greatest achievements: the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after centuries of bloodshed.

Lies lies lies. The UN and NATO have provided peace in Europe - not the EU. You are conveniently forgetting the Bosnian and Kosovan wars when the EU was spectacularly useless and it required the American and NATO to sort out the problem.
The EU is an empire and like all empires it must expand. It is trying to expand eastwards into former Communist countries of the USSR. A look at the EU accounts will show it has given billion of Euros to Ukraine to groom that country into wanted EU membership. When the Ukrainian Govt refused to apply it was overthrown by the people who have been enticed by the EU. Russia will never permit Ukraine to join the EU. It would be like expecting us to keep quiet if Russia took over Scotland. So the EU interference in Ukraine is making that region unstable and rather than providing peace the EU could start a war with Russia.

It furthermore assisted the extraordinary political, social and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980.

Singlehandly, on a wet Wednesday afternoon, without the aid of a tightrope - that's how silly this claim is. Pure, unadultered nonsense that is taking credit for decades of bi and multi-lateral diplomatic efforts that have nothing to do with the EU.

Now the union faces major challenges brought on by neoliberal economic globalisation, and worsened by its own systemic weaknesses. It is taking measures to overcome these.

It is bringing forth its own collapse as it tries to create a political union of 28 separate countries with different domestic agendas and values and ineterest. It is bringing about its own aollapse through the stupidity of thinking it could bind a disperate set of countries with different financial systems into one single currency, something that history tells us has always failed without political union. It has created beggar nations and enslaved their populations in debt for future generations. It is soley responsible for the financial tragedy that is unfolding within poorer EU countries.

We in the UK should reflect on whether our net contribution of £7bn out of total government expenditure of £695bn is good value.
Yes we should, and no it's not. It's much more than that anyway when you add in the costs of actually implementing the mountain of new legislation it send sus each year.

We must play a full part in enabling the union to be a force for good in a multi-polar global future
The union cannot be a force for good. The union is a hollow, vacuous confidence trick to take away the power of the citizens of Europe by stealth and to ensure they live under the diktat. of the EU. as Gorbachev said, he could never understand the countries that escaped the former USSR submitting themselves to a new captivity by the EU masters. it is an undemocratic, unaccountable and dangerous organisation that enriches its elite at the cost of the ordinary person.

Reading that list of EU 'gains' just serves to show that

  1. It's tentacles stretch everywhere. When people accuse you of blaming the EU for everything - you actually have good cause to do so
  2. Our role in the world is diminished, not enriched by our membership
  3. The EU is not Europe. Europe is a continent containing many sovereign states, some of which are under EU control.

We have a simple choice - we stay in the EU and continue to allow uncontrolled immigration from the EU into Britain, to the point at which it overburdens our schools and hospitals and housing stock and we open our welfare and health systems to the 400,000 EU citizens who have a right to use them or we leave and control who is allowed to come here so that we welcome those who have the skills to benefit this country and we retain our NHS and welfare state. We cannot do that in the EU.

SpringingIntoAction · 23/02/2016 23:49

PigletJohn

I meant 400,000 so it was my mistake.

It's not a scare story at all. It's a fact. It's time we took our heads out of the sand and realised that we cannot be the EU's free health service. we must protect it or lose it. I'd rather keep it, so the only option is to LEAVE.

thebiscuitindustry · 23/02/2016 23:50

< applauds SpringingIntoAction >

PigletJohn · 24/02/2016 01:04

just a few of the easy ones:

clean beaches and rivers;
So we couldn't do this without the EU?
But we didn't.

smoke-free workplaces;
We could have legislated for that ourselves.
But we didn't.
Like so many others on that list.

Halal slaughter is permitted.
There must be some reason why people like to use those words (Halal is usually stunned) and never mention Jewish ritual slaughter (never stunned).
Both are permitted in the UK and have been for many years.

The union cannot be a force for good.
Nonsense

improved animal welfare in food production;
You seriously allege that there have been no improvements?

The UN and NATO have provided peace in Europe - not the EU
The people who started the first successful and peaceful European integration had just lived through the greatest and most destructive war the world has ever seen. The older ones had also lived through the second greatest and most destructive war the world has ever seen. They wanted to bring the European nations so closely together that a recurrence would be unthinkable. Nothing was more important to them.

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 01:51

^Halal slaughter is permitted.
There must be some reason why people like to use those words (Halal is usually stunned) and never mention Jewish ritual slaughter (never stunned).
Both are permitted in the UK and have been for many years^

There is no reason why I chose halal as a description rather than ritual slaughter / religious slaughter / slaughter in accordance with Kosher tradition and it's is disingenuous to suggest that I plumped for that particular description for any particular purpose. Are you trying to suggest that I am Jewish? - because you would be wrong. I simply used that as the first example that sprang to mind. Don't try to make more out of this than I intended. Ritual slaughter is abhorrent to me, regardless of whether the animal is / isn't stunned.

^The UN and NATO have provided peace in Europe - not the EU
The people who started the first successful and peaceful European integration had just lived through the greatest and most destructive war the world has ever seen. The older ones had also lived through the second greatest and most destructive war the world has ever seen. They wanted to bring the European nations so closely together that a recurrence would be unthinkable. Nothing was more important to them.^

They wanted to ensure that the main powers in Europe were never able to enter into another conflict. One way of ensuring that could never happen was ever closer political union. A fully integrated European superstate would never be able to go to war with itself, especially if it shared a single European currency. If you do not have control over your currency you are unable to raise the monies you need to finance a war. They saw the 2nd WW as the 3rd large European War. Churchill knew the power of political integration as he offered the French political union with Great Britain in an attempt to keep France fighting in the 2nd WW. Post WW2, Churchill never intended that Britain be part of any integrated European superstate. He saw Britain's role as providing the key link between a united France and Germany and the United Stares and the Commonwealth. A 'foot in every camp'. He did not want Britain to join this European superstate - "We are of it but not absorbed by it".

Why do you think we have never joined the Euro? Because we understand Churchill's desire to be aligned but not consumed by the (now) EU. We recognise the need to retain our own currency? When you surrender your currency you effectively surrender power to another authority. As Greece discovered. Even Cameron recognises that.

So no, I do not agree that, in respect of Britain, that the EU has been a force for good. Those who wish to surrender our sovereignty for cheap mobile roaming charges will one day understand what they've given up. Just as our parents did when they voted to stay in a 'trade organisation' that incomprehensibly to them, morphed into a political union that encroaches on every area of our lives.

tillyho · 24/02/2016 12:49

springing - you have too much time on your hands....

In a time of increasing conflict I would rather be part of a team who share most of my values than trying to go it alone. Co-operation between nations should be encouraged.

Loss of sovereignty is over hyped. To the extent we wish to deal with anyone outside of the UK, and we do, we have to start compromising between what we want and what they want.

Taking your ball away just means you don't get to play football, not that you win the game.

thebiscuitindustry · 24/02/2016 13:25

In a time of increasing conflict I would rather be part of a team who share most of my values than trying to go it alone. Co-operation between nations should be encouraged.

We can co-operate without being part of the EU. We'll still be part of Europe but we'll be making our own decisions. The UK has little say in Brussels. There may still be some shared values (not all by any means) but there's no guarantee that will be the case in the future. At least if that happened with a government in Westminster we could vote them out at the next election.

Loss of sovereignty is over hyped. To the extent we wish to deal with anyone outside of the UK, and we do, we have to start compromising between what we want and what they want.

We can deal with other countries without being part of the EU. And we'll be better able to make acceptable compromises for the UK without the EU.

I wouldn't want to give our sovereignty away.

"Parliamentary sovereignty is a principle of the UK constitution. It makes Parliament the supreme legal authority in the UK, which can create or end any law. Generally, the courts cannot overrule its legislation and no Parliament can pass laws that future Parliaments cannot change. Parliamentary sovereignty is the most important part of the UK constitution." www.parliament.uk/about/how/sovereignty/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146990/Do-you-want-sovereignty-back-Then-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 24/02/2016 13:49

In a time of increasing conflict I would rather be part of a team who share most of my values than trying to go it alone. Co-operation between nations should be encouraged

yes, me too. lets agree to disagree, there is no point in typing long and detailed ripostes, wont change anyone's opinion will it!!!

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 16:33

Fully agree that nations should cooperate. That's what the UN is for.

Am rather dismayed when I hear from a FOI request that all 72 of the last changes we have requested at the EU Council of Ministers have been rejected.

That tell me we're either in an organisation the will not cooperate with us and that there is no point in prolonging your agony in an organisation you cannot change from with.

EatenEasterChocsAlready · 24/02/2016 16:45

we are seeing examples of cooperation across the EU right now are we not Hmm

absolute disaster on migrants, disaster on ISIS flitting across EU with guns and amo...possible 5 thousand MORE waiting to strike...no way of knowing who the hell is there...

Greece scrabbling around trying to cope with little support from its EU nations...its a bloody shambles!

EatenEasterChocsAlready · 24/02/2016 16:45

*lead free petrol;
We don't need the EU to dictate lead free petrol. We could legislate that for ourselves. However we do have German cars pumping out pollution in excess of the EU's emissions levels because they cheated the EU's own emission rules

^ this one, you couldnt make it up could you Grin

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 17:09

Damian Green, Tory Minister in full on spin mode, on TV

Sky reporter - We can't control our borders

Green - Nonsense. Of course we control our borders. We can stop people on terrorist watch lists coming in.

Conveniently ignoring the other 365,000 who are not on a terrorist watch list and who exercised their right to come to live in the UK last year.

Gove's asserts that Dave's deal is illegal. He should know, he's the Lord Chancellor responsible for the courts.

But Donald Tusk says - The deal is "legally binding and irreversible.

But then he says the deal is only on the table if we vote Yes. Which contradicts Cameron saying it had been signed, sealed and lodged with the UN. Attorney General says courts must take account of the deal.

We shall see when the first challenge on the grounds of discrimination on nationality is lodged with the European Court of Justice. If it rules the deal discriminatory- as leading QCs say they it almost certainly will - what then? We've voted YES for a deal that got over-turned? Democracy?

Spin, smoke and mirrors, avoidance and down right lies. I had hoped it would be a fair referendum. That's all I want.

BreakingDad77 · 24/02/2016 17:31

But we didn't

This - in abundance as no Tory or NU-Labour government would have brought these in.

I agree other EU states don't always follow the rules, but I thought many of them were 'best practice' and thats where we fall down in the UK thinking they are hard set. Not helped by what I believed useless MEP's that just agree and didn't bother challenging anything, remember the big panic about all those emergency vehicles that they thought they would have to scrap.

TTIP is not going to be good but outside of the EU our government is pro business and would sign up to it anyway.

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 20:07

BreakingDad77
^But we didn't

This - in abundance as no Tory or NU-Labour government would have brought these in.^

You're overlooking all the social improvements that have been initiated through domestic legislation. You cannot categorically say that any UK domestic Government would not have introduced any/all of these so-called benefits, many of which are not EU victories at all and would only be believed to be so by people who had a very lose grasp of social, economic and political history.

I agree other EU states don't always follow the rules, but I thought many of them were 'best practice' and thats where we fall down in the UK thinking they are hard set.

The laws that Brussels sends us are not 'best practice', they are legislation that we are obliged to enshrine in UK law. We cannot pick and choose which of the laws that Brussels sends us by redefining them as 'best practice'. We have no choice but to implement them. We Brits zealously implement every single law that the EU hands to us. If we don't we'll be fined by the EU or receive an adverse ECJ judgement.
That's what makes it particularly annoying when you are in other EU countries and see that the EU legislation that burdens our public bodies and adds costs to our businesses are simply ignored by many abroad, without any penalties.

Not helped by what I believed useless MEP's that just agree and didn't bother challenging anything, remember the big panic about all those emergency vehicles that they thought they would have to scrap.

The European Parliament cannot throw out any laws that are placed before them. They only have limited powers to amend them, and even then any amendments they may want to make have to be in accordance with EU treaties. The MEPs have very little power. They are the window-dressing to hide the lack of democratic process, the rubber-stamp for the wishes of the Commission.

TTIP is not going to be good but outside of the EU our government is pro business and would sign up to it anyway.

TTIP is going to be an absolute disaster. At present we have to prove products are safe. Once we have TTIP consumers have to prove that products are not safe, because that's the way the American system works. As the EU now has legal entity, via the Treaty of Lisbon, it can be sued. I use the term, 'it' for the EU, but it's the member states that will be tapped for any unforeseen compensation payments to big corpa exercising its rights under TTIP.
You are probably right to say that our (Cameron) government would probably sign up to it anyway but before accepting that TTIP is a done deal that we have no influence over you need to consider a few things.

It's not just some in the UK who have concerns about TTIP. there have been riots and public disorder outside the EU offices in Brussels protesting against it. It's not a certainty it will be adopted before our referendum. TTIP is also an ongoing trade deal that will not complete with this chapter but continue into the future as successive trade deals in other areas are agreed.

If we stay in the EU we will get TTIP. And in the coming years we will get more TTIP. And there is absolutely nothing we can do about it.

If we leave the EU we may not already have agreed TTIP by that time.
We also avoid any future reach of TTIP agreements.

If the agreement has not been signed at the point we leave we dodge it.

If it has been signed, we could repeal it. Our trade deals with other countries would need to be revised anyway post-Brexit as we would no longer be bound by EU trade deals and could make our own. I very much doubt Cameron would survive a LEAVE vote. We would have a completely different Tory government than we have at present or even a General Election . The new Governements's priority will not be TTIP and they couldn't sign us up unilaterally to the existing TTIP anyway as TTIP is an EU / US deal and any new UK version would take a while to agree and would have to pass through our own domestic Parliament.

Timescales are such that we could even have a Labour Government by that time and any future Government is not bound by the past, so they could repeal any UK domestic TTIP.

But if you stay in the EU the certainty is that we get TTIP and we get more and more of this type of deal could never regain the power to repeal it.

Why do you think Goldman Sachs and big corpa support our EU membership? It benefits them, not us.

PigletJohn · 24/02/2016 20:14

"You cannot categorically say that any UK domestic Government would not have introduced any/all of these so-called benefits"

Easy one here

Sea bathing and sewage treatment both became popular and widespread in Victorian Britain.

So after a hundred years... no home-grown Blue Flag scheme.

If our governments had wanted to, they could have introduced a scheme for bathing to be in sewage-free beaches, with drinking water and WCs.

Didn't.

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 21:18

It's impossible to prove a negative.

The Blue Flag is a certification by the Foundation for Environmental Education a not-for-profit, non-governmental organisation consisting of 65 organisations in 60 member countries in Europe, Africa, Oceania, Asia, North America and South America. The Blue Flag scheme was actually a pilot scheme started by the French, not the EU, It was later adopted by the EU

I cannot accept that at some point the UK would not have joined this organisation voluntarily, like the 33 member countries outside the EU did. Given our track record on joining international organisations it is not credible to think we only joined it because the EU forced us to.

We happened to join it during the period in which we were also a (now) EU member. That is the only claim that the EU has for supposedly raising the quality of beaches.

DeoGratias · 24/02/2016 21:27

The only sensible decision is to vote to stay in as indeed we will.

If anyone wants a symbol of the differences between the in and out lot here is the official anthem of Brexit:

And this is the EU anthem (Beethoven)

I can tell you which one I prefer and of which group I want to be a part.

EatenEasterChocsAlready · 24/02/2016 21:37

Deo part of my problem though is I dont know who the other group is, yes I know the brit part of it but I have not got the faintest clue who the people in the EU actually are. That scares me.

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 21:42

here is the official anthem of Brexit:

I would suggest Elgar, or Jerusalem, or Land of Hope and Glory.

SpringingIntoAction · 24/02/2016 21:48

I have not got the faintest clue who the people in the EU actually are. That scares me

So it should.

It also worried Tony Benn:

^Letter to Bristol constituents (29 December 1974).

We have confused the real issue of parliamentary democracy, for already there has been a fundamental change.

The power of electors over their law-makers has gone, the power of MPs over Ministers has gone, the role of Ministers has changed.

The real case for entry has never been spelled out, which is that there should be a fully federal Europe in which we become a province.
It hasn't been spelled out because people would never accept it. We are at the moment on a federal escalator, moving as we talk, going towards a federal objective we do not wish to reach.

In practice, Britain will be governed by a European coalition government that we cannot change, dedicated to a capitalist or market economy theology. This policy is to be sold to us by projecting an unjustified optimism about the Community, and an unjustified pessimism about the United Kingdom, designed to frighten us in. Jim quoted Benjamin Franklin, so let me do the same: "He who would give up essential liberty for a little temporary security deserves neither safety nor liberty."

The Common Market will break up the UK because there will be no valid argument against an independent Scotland, with its own Ministers and Commissioner, enjoying Common Market membership. We shall be choosing between the unity of the UK and the unity of the EEC. It will impose appalling strains on the Labour movement...I believe that we want independence and democratic self-government, and I hope the Cabinet in due course will think again.^

He was worried. He didn't want to replace 'God Save the Queen' with the soundtrack to 'A Clockwork Orange'.

TheAlchemist101 · 24/02/2016 22:04

PigletJohn health tourism by EU nationals is not a myth I work in a medical speciality in a NHS hospital and over the last 6 months we have had to create an additional clinic for EU migrants' children who have a chronic condition requiring life long treatment. One of the treatments we offer cost £200,000 per child per year. Apparently most of them were advised by their doctors in their own countries to move to the UK as we offer the most up to date treatment for free. I have heard the same thing happening from colleagues who work in other medical specialities

PigletJohn · 24/02/2016 22:11

I took issue with the 400,000 million figure.

Do you get many French, German and Scandinavian health tourists?

BreakingDad77 · 25/02/2016 10:38

I am aware of the backlash across EU against TTIP, and in some ways thought that that would transfer into at least delaying it, more talks etc which I thought is what has happened?

But I believe the UK outside of EU would sign up to it 100% as US is held up by this government as the gold standard.

stopfuckingshoutingatme · 25/02/2016 10:51

I work in a medical speciality in a NHS hospital and over the last 6 months we have had to create an additional clinic for EU migrants' children who have a chronic condition requiring life long treatment

this really sticks in my craw- you really seem to resent east Europeans getting any type of benefits or healthcare don't you? there is something very heartless and depressing about this for me

anyway if its any consolation we have admitted fuck all refugees compared to our other EU compadres- hopefully that offsets treating these ill polish babies

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