Women's safety in Europe after Cologne

[DavidTCDaviesMP]

I have been invited onto Mumsnet to discuss the situation for women in Europe following the attacks in Cologne, and the challenge we face in Europe in trying to help millions of mainly young men, who are arriving in Europe from cultures which treat women very differently. I believe this is an issue which needs open discussion by political leaders yet is swept under the carpet. David Davies MP

Bill,

'The fact is, if someone has been murdered by a terrorist in the U.S., they are overwhelmingly likely to have been killed by a Muslim'.

No. Since 9/11, nine Muslim-Americans have been involved in around six plots a year, resulting in 50 fatalities. On the other hand, right-wing extremists have averaged 337 attacks a year, killing 254 people- including 25 police officers.

Right-wing, anti-government extremism is the leading source of ideological violence in America

This may be of interest to some of you:

As Muslims, our initial and understandable response to the atrocities committed in the name of our religion is disbelief, outrage and a natural instinct to distance ourselves from their perpetrators. “These barbaric acts” [...] “have nothing to do with Islam,” we exclaim. While understandable, this attitude is dubious intellectually and altogether irresponsible. Would anyone agree with the notion that the crusades had “nothing to do” with Christianity? In truth, far too many among us appear to feel more indignant about ultimately meaningless caricatures published in a newspaper than about the abominable caricature that is being made of our religion by the likes of ISIS and Boko Haram. And while social and economic issues, or mistreatment by law enforcement agencies, may play a part in the radicalization of our youths [...] they fall way short from explaining it altogether.

Fortunately, an increasing number of Muslims are saying “Medina, Cairo, we have a problem” and calling for reform. But just what is meant by that term? A renovation of Islamic thought and a fresh push for the re-interpretation (ijtihâd) of sacred texts are, of course, absolutely necessary. Until they are seriously undertaken, Muslims will remain hostage to literal, obsolete readings of our sacred texts.

[...] We need to take a long, hard and honest look at the texts that are part of the core curriculum of our faith’s most prestigious learning centers.

The above-mentioned claim that violent acts of terror have “nothing to do with Islam” needs to be contrasted with the reverence that some of our most distinguished and respected scholars show for such books as Min Haj el Talibin by the renowned jurist consul Araf el dine el Nawawi, which recommends stoning adulterers or Es sarim el maslul ala chatim el rasul by Ibn Taymiyya, or Taqi al-Din al-Subki’s Es seyf el maslul ala men sabba al rasul, which can both be translated roughly as “The sword is drawn against that one who speaks ill of the Prophet.” The very precise prescriptions they contain regarding how to punish blasphemy, apostasy or adultery is the basis not just for ISIS’ and Boko Haram’s claim that their brand of Islam is nothing more than very rigorous, but for that of many mainstream conservative Muslim states.

You want me to specify where and how Islam oppresses women emily? It would take so long to do I just don't have the time, I doubt MN has the bandwidth.

What would make it a hell of a lot easier emily, if you could name, outside of Turkey (and that's debatable in itself), a Muslim country where women have similar equality, status and freedom to those enjoyed by women in the west?

I'm sure you'll agree that this would be a much more sensible solution as the list will be far shorter and easier to compile and a much less arduous and time consuming task. Thank you in advance for your assistance. Xxx

"you say he had converted to Islam but seem to cite this as the reason for his horrible misogynistic remark. Perhaps he had always been a misogynistic assole?"

I do not want to reproduce any more extracts from the transcript, save to say the rest is much, much worse and obscene. He and his acolytes make it very clear that women who have not come Islam are whores and bitches (white and black), whereas muslim women are "decent" - his words. In fact, he goes into a tirade against Afro-Caribbean women as well, even though his own parentage is African.

He's very well known and though I am always pressed for time, I think it's time to report him to the FA.

Links here to the six Arab Human Development Reports produced since 2002 under the aegis of the UN Development Programme.

The first report in 2002 "acknowledged that Arab countries have made substantial progress over the past three decades. Life expectancy has increased by 15 years; mortality rates for children under five years of age have fallen by about two thirds; adult literacy has almost doubled, reflecting large increases in gross educational enrollments. Yet it is obvious that Arab countries have not developed as quickly as comparable nations in other regions. Indeed, more than half of Arab women are illiterate; the region's infant mortality rate is twice as high as in Latin America and the Caribbean. Over the past 20 years, income growth per capita has also been extremely low. The Report highlights the causes of these deficits and identifies three areas where Arab institutional structures are hindering performance and crippling human development: governance, women's empowerment, and access to knowledge."

Progress is being made in some countries, less in others...

If you want to gain an accurate picture of something you can't just rely on one set of statistics or one research group. These methods are often flawed. If you want to generalise about one group, I think offering more than one set of evidence isn't a lot to ask, but obviously it's beyond your capabilities. Hardly a surprise. Lazy generalisations make for lazy evidence I suppose.

Oh emily again, seriously cant be arsed, got so many more important things to do than bother with that...like clean the top of the cooker!

In addition, if you want to claim one group are more misogynist and anti gay than another and thus more of a threat to the UK than other groups, an examination of said group in comparison to Christian, Jewish and other groups would be useful. Establishing their views on women's rights and gay people could be rather enlightening for you.

You're manipulating the figures again emily, your little chart dated from 1980 because starting from that point in time includes a lot of non-Islamic related terrorism from the 80s and 90s which skews the view to make Islamic terrorism appear insignificant.

But when we start talking about the number of actual deaths you move the goalposts and decide to start counting only after 9/11, again selecting your data from a particular point intentionally to minimise the impact of Islamic terrorism.

Tut, tut emily, if you want to manipulate statistics you should at least try not to be so bloody obvious about it.

Can you tell me where your figures re deaths from white supremacist attacks come from? They don't seem to tally with what the FBI says on the subject. I suspect they are probably another manipulated statistic you've taken from leftwingnutttersruz.com

emily, again, please detail to me the Muslim countries where equal gay rights are enshrined in law, gay marriage is permitted and no institutionalised discrimination against gay people is contained within that countries legal system. Thx.

Another anecdote from Turkey - my Turkish friend was protesting (sitting protest at her university in Ankara circa 1991) in favour of women's rights. She was put in a cell and her passport removed. 25 years later she still can't get a passport - and 15 years of that was during an allegedly "secular" period.

No sporting, you clearly can't be arsed. You are a sheep, letting people like Britt do the thinking for you.

I posted this vid on an earlier thread. This is a Saudi scholar called Al-Buleihi who is saying what sounds daring & contrary in such a conservative country such as Saudi Arabia.

Me again! lol

Grace Would you know whether any other woman in that demo also had her passport confiscated? Appalling.

Bill, the deaths from 9 11 were atrocious, te anture of them and the scaleof them. However, in terms of probability, in cases of terrorism, those attacks do not mean US citizens are more likely to be killed by Muslim terrorists. Being killed by a homegrown far right extremist is more likely.

This piece by the New York Times supports this. I don't know if they are quite the obscure bonkers 'leftie' source you were hoping for, but here you are,

'But the breakdown of extremist ideologies behind those attacks may come as a surprise. Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim extremists than by radical Muslims: 48 have been killed by extremists who are not Muslim, including the recent mass killing in Charleston, S.C., compared with 26 by self-proclaimed jihadists, according to a count by New America, a Washington research center'.

SOURCE

www.nytimes.com/2015/06/25/us/tally-of-attacks-in-us-challenges-perceptions-of-top-terror-threat.html?_r=0

but obviously it's beyond your capabilities
Ruuuuuuuuude!

Establishing their views on women's rights and gay people could be rather enlightening for you.
Pat-ro-ni-sing!

Why do I get sucked in? Why?

Oh emily, that 254 figure is from one extremely biased report on terrorism which casts a very wide net with regards to what it classes as terrorism, again in a manner which seems to have been done deliberately by the reports author in order to allow more far right 'terror attacks' to be classified as such and skew the figures. And it is just one report, which official figures don't confirm. And we can't go on just one report based on one dataset with no corroboration now can we emily? You said yourself, that would be just silly!

How are you getting along with the lists of all the progressive equality promoting Islamic States emily? There must be loads of them because it's taking you ever such a long time to do the lists.

No I cant be arsed with you emily, end of. What part of that cant you understand, you are the sheep! Unable to even take on board that others might not agree with everything you say. For the record I've disagreed with some of what Britt said and agreed with some of your points but you are getting so wound up and hysterical that you don't remember that, or it doesn't fit nicely with your control drama. I've agreed and disagreed with various points over the whole discussion, which is what makes it a discussion. If we'd all agreed with each other it would be just short boring and pointless and we could have done something else like do our nails or clean the bath.

Bill, how did you get on to America? The worldwide totals for deaths due to extremism are very interesting (and deeply depressing) and emily has totally ignored them

the deaths from 9 11 were atrocious, te anture of them and the scaleof them. However, in terms of probability, in cases of terrorism, those attacks do not mean US citizens are more likely to be killed by Muslim terrorists. Being killed by a homegrown far right extremist is more likely.

Er, no. The probability of being killed by a non-Islamic terrorist is only lower if you deliberately select dates which exclude 9/11 in order to skew the figures. MATHS emily, -D minus must try harder.

but obviously it's beyond your capabilities says someone without a basic grasp of statistics.

Since Sept. 11, 2001, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists, antigovernment fanatics and other non-Muslim

This is in the USA only.

"No Bill, denial is stating that people identifying as Muslims commit more atrocities when it is blatantly untrue. Denial is stating most terrorism comes from Muslims when it doesn't."

here is a screenshot of a table put together from data collected by U.S. government agency the National Counter-Terrorism Center of worldwide terrorist incidents between 2001-2010. You can bet the Islam tally is a hell of a lot higher now. As it stood then Islamic terrorism was already the most deadly form of terrorism

Lumela, because emily was posting dodgy statistics based on the U.S. And I just thought I would point out she was posting deliberately selective and misleading information.

Another story in Time.

SOURCE

time.com/3934980/right-wing-extremists-white-terrorism-islamist-jihadi-dangerous/