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Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve

999 replies

Cellardoor1 · 04/01/2016 22:20

I've just read this and I'm shocked that such a thing could happen. A group of around 1,000 men gathered and assaulted at least 60 women and girls and also pickpocketed people. Apparently the news wasn't released until now out of fears it could stir up tension as the men appeared to be of Arab/North African appearance, possibly refugees.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cologne-police-chief-condemns-sex-assaults-years-eve-36083833

OP posts:
BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 15:59

Well when I "encountered this shit" I did nothing to fight and that's one of the parts that haunts me the most and made me feel guilty / like it was my fault / that I allowed it to happen. So you can imagine that someone telling me that we should all learn self defence to stop this "shit" makes me feel particularly crap.

Of course the man that attacked me is the one who should have been doing the learning - not me. I believed that if I'd fought back he might have killed me

And even when these women did fight back in Cologne, it made no difference. What is one woman supposed to do againt 1000 men? Or even one man?

I hate this "women need to learn do defend themselves" argument. It's the thin end of the "women should stay indoors / not get drunk / not wear revealing clothing" wedge

Pinkchampchoccies · 05/01/2016 16:03

For some reason, this situation also makes me think of Internet Porn. Generally Porn pictures women in a degrading and dehumanising way promoting the idea that women are a means for the sexual gratification of men.

What I am trying to say is that I am appalled by the migrant attacks in Cologne and there is definitely a tendency to openly disrespect and abuse women in some cultures. It is bad enough to be subjected to groping or worse when visiting countries where this happens but feels worse if it happens at home.

However, at the same time, we need to look at our own popular culture too, these issues are not entirely separate. What sorts of ideas do men get if they watch internet porn from a young age and grow to view women as sex objects, expecting extreme sexual acts or normalising violent sex.

polentapies · 05/01/2016 16:05

I agree with you Bit about women being told they they have to defend themselves, as it does put the emphasis back on the woman, which is unacceptable. But from my experience I know that it is common to 'freeze 'in this situation and self defence courses 'could' be of help. I am with you on the 'thin edge of the wedge' argument tho'.

Peregrane · 05/01/2016 16:09

Mephistopheles, I see your point but I want to add that if these fuckers only respect male opinion, then it will help if our sons (and males who are currently in power) will lay it down to them. Not to say this is all that should happen, far from it.

I read years ago (during the hoo-ha over the British citizenship tests when those were introduced) that the Dutch make applicants for Dutch citizenship watch a film about life in the Netherlands. This includes for instance gay couples being affectionate (obviously not having sex but holding hands? kissing?) and it is made clear that if someone wants to be a Dutch citizen, they need to live with the values in that society.

So as another silly and half-baked idea that will never happen, I would like immigrants to have to sign up to some of our basic values and if they cannot undertake to behave accordingly, go the fuck back to where you came from.

(Don't go into the list of problems with this proposal, I am aware it is lengthy.)

More seriously, I really like Martha Nussbaum's proposals in Political Emotions. Yes it is problematic for various reasons to actively promote a set of values, especially in a country which respects the freedom of opinion and of religion. It is inherently problematic for a liberal many of whom will want to argue that there are no values that are intrinsically superior to others, that they do not want to judge etc. And yet, I really feel that this needs to be done or we'll slide back to the dark ages. Nussbaum is a leading philosopher and her argumentation is nuanced.

polentapies · 05/01/2016 16:09

Pink
I agree with you on the culture element. Being against parts of a culture is not the same as racism, regardless of the culture (or subculture).

noeffingidea · 05/01/2016 16:09

bitoutofpractice people aren't having a go at you.
The fact is, there probably always will be a small percentage of people who are sexually violent. We don't know enough about the human mind and pathology to eliminate it at present. It goes deeper then 'telling men not to rape'. And that's not even going into cultural forces.
There's nothing wrong with learning some self defence techniques in the meantime.

MrWriter · 05/01/2016 16:12

pink most me over the last few decades have been exposed to some form of porn, whether in school in a magazine tittering (hmmn maybe not the best word) at the back of the class with mates, or in other areas as the internet became more prevalent. This exposure didn't make them gang up in 1000's to harass women.

That's because they were brought up in a society by mothers and female role models who were allowed to have jobs (or not if that's what they wanted) and go shopping on their own, and drive and have all the freedoms that we hold dearly.

These men that perpetrated these awful attack in Cologne were brought up in a society that thinks women are for male gratification and reproduction and form no other purpose. Its this attitude that needs to be changed, but that wont happen over night, in the mean time the law needs to be used to its full extent.

franke · 05/01/2016 16:12

Bit no no no, it was not your fault and you didn't allow it to happen and I'm really sorry if my post suggested that in any way, it absolutely was not my intention. I suppose all I'm saying is that right now I feel powerless and scared for my dd. I have no faith that once the furore has abated about what has happened in Cologne, truly decisive action will be taken against these attitudes. So in the meantime I just feel the need to something for her.

BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 16:13

I realise people aren't having a go at me. I thought we were just exchanging views on this issue from a broadly similar viewpoint of outrage and disgust at what heppened in Cologne

And yes, I realise it goes seeper than that. I was talking in a short hand way in response to "girls need to learn self defence" comment - which in itself is a simplification of the "girls should modify their behaviour" POV isn't it?

If I sound defensive it's because I'm typing fast when I should be working and doing 18 things at once

BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 16:15

franke that's OK - of course I knew that was not your intention - please don't worry that I think that Thanks But given that many women who have been raped and assualted do believe it's therir fault, as I did for many years, you can see that it's an issue which touches a lot of raw nerves.

And I agree with you, I too worry for my DDs this sort of thing makes my blood run cold for them

MephistophelesApprentice · 05/01/2016 16:24

Peregrane

The difficulty is, that in the cultural eyes of these men, I'm not really a man; In my workplace and life I accept and embrace the authority of women, I don't feel the need to abuse homosexuals, I'd be happy raising children at home while my partner works, I regard trying to get my way by force or threat as barbaric. They will not listen to me, or men like me, unless we're holding guns on them; Even then they are aware of how hobbled we are in what we can enforce through violence.

I would welcome an attempt to culturally educate new immigrants, but I believe they would view it with disgust and contempt for how degenerate our society is and how justified (and easy) it would be for them to exploit and replace it.

Every time we respond to these repeated outrages by castigating those within our own society, the more we convince these hostile individuals that they are in the right.

Lauren15 · 05/01/2016 16:28

Yes Bit I worry for my daughter when I hear about this kind of thing.

polentapies · 05/01/2016 16:28

Anyone read German?

Apparently this n released as a Post NYE advice for women! I want to know what it says

BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 16:31

Well according to Google Translate it says "There are "rules of conduct" - for women in carnival". FFS!

onthephone100 · 05/01/2016 16:34

It says to keep an arms length from strangers, stay in a group, tell the police immediately of any problems or if you witness anything....

Hang on I'm still reading

VegetablEsoup · 05/01/2016 16:35

'verhaltensregeln' in this context means advice.

Pinkchampchoccies · 05/01/2016 16:35

"That's because they were brought up in a society by mothers and female role models who were allowed to have jobs (or not if that's what they wanted) and go shopping on their own, and drive and have all the freedoms that we hold dearly."

I hope you are right but I fear that this is a bit of an idealistic view. I appreciate that a mob of 1000 men who have lost their inhibitions harassing women is a new low in terms of gender-based violence. However, women are subjected to sexual violence by men in the UK on a regular basis, sorry I have no time to copy/paste stats. I am also not aware of any research that reliably links watching porn with a diminished view of women and tendency for violence as this is not my area of expertise at all. Does anyone else here know of any reliable research wrt porn/mysoginist computer games and sexual violence? Common sense makes me think there is a link but I don't know.

I only mentioned porn because the portrayal of women in a sexually demeaning way worries me a lot and offends me. Maybe it was a long shot... I suppose the combination of porn and being brought up in a culture which utterly disrespect women worries me even more.

Igneococcus · 05/01/2016 16:36

Yes, it says something about rules for women. It mentions something about "keeping strangers at arm length distance" yeah, cause that will helpHmm

onthephone100 · 05/01/2016 16:37

It also says that people from other cultures should be clear what constitutes having a good time at Karneval, and that they should not take women having a good time as meaning women are open to sexual mishandling (sorry, not a straight translation of that word)

BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 16:37

It seems to be what women should do, what police should do and we have no idea who these men are. Is that right?

Theodopolus · 05/01/2016 16:38

This ain't going to end well. Our cultures are quite simply INCOMPATIBLE.

MrWriter - I agree wholeheartedly with your post.

And I hope to Christ that Germany does not go down the route of victim blaming or curtailing women's liberties!

Igneococcus · 05/01/2016 16:39

It is a straight translation of "misshandeln". mistreatment might be the appropriate English word.

BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 16:39

It seems utterly utterly half baked to me.

How can you keep "all strangers at arms length" in a crowd of 100 sexually aggressive men? And the victims have specifivally said they stayed with their friends but were still assualted. It seems like this "advice" bears no actual relationship to what went on.

Nor does the statement seem to include any really firm and clear condemnation of what went on or that it will not be tolerated.

I have to say that if I were a women living in Cologne I'd be mighty cross about that

onthephone100 · 05/01/2016 16:40

It goes on to say about more CCTV and more police, particularly uniformed police out on Karneval. It points out especially that should be a lot more police on Altweiber, which is a day of celebrations particularly for women (it's the Thursday of Karneval weekend)

BitOutOfPractice · 05/01/2016 16:40

1000 sexually aggressive men (or let's face it a much much smaller group than that!)