Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve

[Cellardoor1]

I've just read this and I'm shocked that such a thing could happen. A group of around 1,000 men gathered and assaulted at least 60 women and girls and also pickpocketed people. Apparently the news wasn't released until now out of fears it could stir up tension as the men appeared to be of Arab/North African appearance, possibly refugees.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cologne-police-chief-condemns-sex-assaults-years-eve-36083833

[Moreshabbythanchic]

According to Sky news 16 people have been identified but no arrests have been made.

[claig]

In fact I think what will have to happen is what Corbyn has done to Labour where he has opened up policy making to the members and tried to remove it from the Parliamentary Party who don't listen to the members. Eventually a politician will listen to the people and what they really think (not moderate their commenst and shut down discussion) and go direct to a popular mandate rather than a politically correct one made by a tiny clique which says that "there is nothing we can do, we can't police it, please moderate how you interact and keep at arm's length and don't go to certain places at certain times".

[onthephone100]

Came by to check in again and my heart sank to see claig.

Let's not let this get derailed.

Claig, go back to your other pet threads and leave us alone.

[PartridgeFairysparkles]

I don't think this is about left and right, it's more to do with authoritarian vs liberal. I don't see how become a more controlled, less liberal society helps anyone. That's what Isis and the like want.

[onthephone100]

I want to discuss women, not some endlessly fucking circular argument about left vs right.

[SonyaAtTheSamovar]

But liberal cannot mean women stay home or you risk group assault. Outside a mainline rail station.

[claig]

'it's more to do with authoritarian vs liberal'

I don't think it is about that. It is fundamentally about political correctness. Nothing will improve if that remains to silence people and stop them commenting on Guardian articles about what they think should be done to change and improve things.

[bluebolt]

How can this be policed? I read in a German paper of a nightclub refusing access to asylum seekers due to previous men harassing women. one group of asylum seekers gives little insight to the behaviour of others and the nightclub was immediately labelled racist. The same as the men on NYE they are using group mentality to not only help them carry out attacks but to shield the attacks as well. This could be done right under the polices nose will the only power the police having is dispersal. Technically the only offender is the person who carries out the assault which in close confinement could be anyone

[SonyaAtTheSamovar]

English law has introduced joint enterprise but then some of those reported cases seem unfair.

[Tatiana44]

Luna said:
"You are deluded if you think no one on this thread is being racist. The assumption that a large proportion of refugees or immigrants are a threat to us because some people of the rather ambiguous term 'Arabic appearance' committed sexual assault is rather racist and very silly, considering the diverse range of places refugees and immigrants come from and the diversity of cultural behaviours that may come from those places."

It is not racist to describe your attacker as best you can.
Not all ME/N.African immigrants will attack, but those that do should be called out. The majority of current refugees/immigrants are from countries in the East which in fact share a very strong culture, behaviour and language. So not diverse at all.

[GlindatheFairy]

How can this be policed? If numerous men are arrested and given prison sentences for these crimes it will discourage others.

Men pretty much get away with rape in the UK a lot of the time anyway with such a low rate of convictions. Fortunately most men are not rapists. Perhaps Germany will fare better at locating and successfully prosecuting these individuals.

[noeffingidea]

It can be policed but it requires effort and money. More CCT, a higher police presence in public spaces, zero tolerance. You know, the police actually doing the job they're paid to do. Then rapid prosecution, aporopiate sentencing followed by deportation.
The idea is to crack down hard on the first offenders to give the message that it isn't acceptable. These are young men that are flexing their muscles , they need to be smacked down hard to give a message.
Of course that's probably not going to happen, is it. They'll get away with it and they'll keep on doing it.
The trouble with being nice and liberal is that others aren't, and they see fairness and niceness as a weakness and take liberties.

[Cellardoor1]

luna it's not racist to describe the attackers appearance, it is relevant. This isn't just a few men,it was 1000. Wake up. Is it a coincidence that according to witnesses they were all middle eastern/north Africa in appearance?

No one is saying all Muslim men have these attitudes but it's is an undeniable fact that certain Muslim cultures don't respect women. You are truly deluded if you refuse to accept that. With more men from these cultures coming to Europe and refusing to integrate, these sorts of attacks will happen more. Shutting down the debate will only make matters worse, not help the situation.

[megletthesecond]

Just caught up with the news that police struggled to deal with this. Holy shit.

[Inkanta]

Cellardoor - well said.

[polentapies]

Well said Cellar

Are we to deny the Honour Killings in Pakistan and Afghanistan are NOT part of that culture? Or do we just ignore it because not ALL the men there maim and murder their wives and daughters because of perceived 'dishonour'

[Tatiana44]

Vacuums were created by the West in Yugoslavia, Iraq and Libya and look what has happened. What did the western leaders think was going to happen ..... that some nice, democratic election would take place and those countries would have a Westminster.

I have just finished speaking on the phone to my Iraqi friend who has lived in London for 15 yrs. He said life under Sadaam Hussein for all faiths and sects was good because Hussein would not brook any infighting, nor discrimination by one group against another. Not a great guy because of what he did to the Kurds, but he insisted on a secular attitude in public and in private you can worship whoever you want to. The only reason my friend decided to move to England is that he had been in 3 wars already and was fed up. I think the draft was mandatory.

[NoSuchThingAsTooMuchLemon]

Swan, something to cheer you up:

www.tagesschau.de/inland/sexualstrafrecht-117.html

[Inkanta]

The victims talked about it being unusual that there were so many men there in the square that night. They said they looked 'Arab' and spoke a language to each other that the victims didn't understand - that wasn't Spanish, English or German.

The more stories I read or listen to you - you can't help but think they must have been an organised gang - and probably immigrants.

[LunaLodbrok]

You're wrong Tatiana and they certainly don't share the same language.That is very ignorant.

I haven't said that describing the attackers' appearance is wrong, it is wrong to assume men sharing these physical characteristics will do the same. It is also wrong to assume refugees will do the same.

There are very warped views on women in a number of cultures. When I did teacher training a Muslim lady in my class said wearing a headscarf prevented rape. Another Muslim student sat there in disbelief shaking her head. Fair enough, there aspects that are sometimes worrying, it is the generalising I don't like.When living in Bradford many years ago, groups of young men would sometimes try to intimidate me or call me a slag. However, I didn't assume all people from this ethnic group were twats. I am sure many just went about their business not giving people shit.

There are also a lot of white young men that attack women. Is an aspect ofour culture to blame?

I think it was pinkchamp that said you thought it better just the well educated came from Syria. I think that is actually the case as it costs so much to pay the smugglers. The less wealthy have to stay and many are starving.

Many people do integrate and there are barriers to integration that need tackling. Yes, some people are responsible for their own refusal to integrate but it is the blanket kind of response of 'keep them all out' and automatic link to refugees I am questioning because that shuts down debate too.

Anyway, I wish the women had been treated respectfully by police and not blamed for the attacks. The response has been pitiful.

[GarlicCake]

The South African revolution was hardly bloodless. Perhaps if women the world over went on a killing spree, we might get taken more seriously ...

... which is not a statement of ideals! Just commenting that black South Africans didn't get heard until they rose up violently. More like a statement of what patriarchies respect, perhaps?

[Tatiana44]

Yes, Inkata, they were speaking Arabic. A Yemeni will understand a Syrian will understand an Iraqi. There are minor differences in dialect and the accent is different, but language is the same across approx 12 countries in the ME. It's the difference between Russian and Ukrainian.

[hiddenhome2]

The sad thing is we still do deals and work with countries that treat women as second class citizens - in so many respects.

South Africa was shamed and shunned worldwide for the way it treated black people. But many countries are welcomed here in spite of their attitude towards women.

Why?

Because women don't really matter?

[hiddenhome2]

Women, on the whole, won't rise up violently because they usually have children to consider. They can't afford to be killed or maimed. They're also putting their children's lives in danger if they start attacking aggressive, hostile males.