Mass sexual assaults in Cologne on New Years Eve

[Cellardoor1]

I've just read this and I'm shocked that such a thing could happen. A group of around 1,000 men gathered and assaulted at least 60 women and girls and also pickpocketed people. Apparently the news wasn't released until now out of fears it could stir up tension as the men appeared to be of Arab/North African appearance, possibly refugees.

abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cologne-police-chief-condemns-sex-assaults-years-eve-36083833

[NoSuchThingAsTooMuchLemon]

Great post, PinkChamp!

[BungoWomble]

Yes, Pink, we need to bring back the notion of a public domain, where all are equal, all are to be respected. And those who cannot abide by that should not be permitted within it. There has always been this fundamental tension in free speech and other libertarian values. They need defending, to claim they don't, to claim our culture does not need defending, is naive.

[Anotherusername1]

Ironically, the Guardian now has an article about society not letting women speak out.

Yet they don't allow comments on articles about issues that affect women like this.

I noticed this too!

I am just sick of womens rights taking a back seat to ethnic rights. First Rotherham and the like, now this. No we're not going to do anything because it's their culture, blah blah and because the girls concerned in Rotherham etc were considered to be trash by the police as well so you had the double whammy of sexism and the class system in action. How long has it taken to start to take FGM seriously here?

The only time I have been made to feel uncomfortable by a man was in Germany. And that was by a North African.

I hope this does lead to a change in the law around sexual offences in Germany.

[visitorfromgermany]

uglyswan, I think, we are absolutely on the Same wavelength (Do you really say that? leo.org saß so...).

my first Posting about this on the german Forum was, how outraged and saddened and angry i am about such a massive attack on womens rights and womens freiem.
and i emphazised, that that would be the case and is the case no matter which Religion or ethnicity the attackiert would have, I wrote, that every attac on a Girls or women should be investigated and punished, whenever possible.

that was there das ago and by now i am Busy defending myself, because some People over there seem to push my Messe NT in the feminists corners, where i would Put it, but in the right Wing, where i definitely not belong.

and so this discussion, as you say, shifts from the original cause (no one should be allowed to assault women) to "why it is our on doing, because we didn't Do enough to make People Embrace our rules and laws.

[LunaLodbrok]

BungoWomble, where is your evidence that the majority of these men were recent migrants and not men whose families had lived in the country for generations?

Women should not be told to bear responsibility for the attacks or given advice on how not to be attacked. I agree that that does give all the power to the men that did it and is dangerous.

Simply knowing someone's ethnic appearance does not autmoatically tell you what their culture is. 'Arabic appearance' would not mean you share the same culture.

I'm not in denial about anything. What do you have to say about the culture of white sex attackers? Is our whole culture responsible? Do we indeed share one culture? Clearly the whole issue is far more complex than blaming all Muslim men.

[uglyswan]

Yes, what about #Aufschrei? Apart from the torrent of scorn and ridicule poured on the campaign by members of the press e.g. Birgit "Just botton up your blouse" Kelle), the public and politicians (e.g. Joachim "Tugendfuror" Gauck), what where the actual results? Where were the legal and political reforms? This time, at least, these women were believed, the incident was taken seriously. You want a discussion of both immigration and women's issues together, not as an either/or question in the public sphere. Do really think that's how media discourse works?

[BungoWomble]

Go read the bbc report and the reports of the victims and police. Non European languages and appearance. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it probably is a duck, however long they have been here.

[GraceKellysLeftArm]

Bungo - I think Canada is only accepting families.

[Pinkchampchoccies]

Oh Luna, you really are not getting the gist of this thread.

Nobody here is blaming "all Muslim men". I advise you to back and RTFT.

[Pinkchampchoccies]

"You want a discussion of both immigration and women's issues together, not as an either/or question in the public sphere."
^YY

[BungoWomble]

Regarding the culture of white sex attackers: I repeat, we have enough problems already, we do not need to import more. God knows we have enough problems already - my experience of harassment, unlike Another's, has been extensive in Britain and I feel safer on the Continent, on the whole, outside the big cities. But there really is no sense in bringing in large hordes of single men from cultures which are known to be formally hostile towards women, rather than our informal hostility, just as ours is beginning to improve at long bloody last, especially with no plan in place to integrate them properly.

[uglyswan]

visitor - I think we probably are too . I just want to comment on this remark, "because we didn't Do enough to make People Embrace our rules and laws." Of course putting the responsibility on the home culture for not doing enough to "make people embrace our laws" is ridiculous. But non-adherence to these laws isn't the main problem if the law simply isn't on our side. Here is an article by Renate Künast on how the loopholes in §177 mean that a rapist - whose 15 year old victim clearly told him that she did not wanted to have sex - was acquitted, because she couldn't prove that she was frightened and coerced into having sex. With laws like that, what's the point of forcing people to embrace them?

[visitorfromgermany]

yes, you are right and it depresses me ...a lot.

i will cry about it 2 Minutes now and then i have to pick up my child from school. but I will be back later and read on, very happy to be here and reading Tons of intelligent and informed posts

[KERALA1]

Very disappointed in the guardian response to this.

[Inkanta]

Luna - it bothers me that a serious incident such as this, that's creating thorough good discussion, you're looking to find a way in to play the racist card. For goodness sakes!

[LunaLodbrok]

More in Shabbychic, I'm not getting what you mean there. 'Leave in families' clearly means leaving as a family unit. Not sure what point you are trying to make there apart from twisting my words. My other half volounteerd in Serbia and said that 60 per cent of refugees there were families, often small kids with mum and dad, so the claim the claim that the majority are lone dangerous cold hearted men that have abandoned families is false. Those that are lone are also not likely to simply be heartless bastards out for themselves. Two young men my other half met were brothers travelling together. They were Syrian and saw the city bombed every day. Some family were already in Europe. They left some family behind too. Who knows what we would do in their position?

He also volounteered at Idomeni where there were a lot of lone men and many families. Syrians were allowed to go straight through to buses and I believe Iraquis and Afghanistanis were also. Those from elsewhere, such as Iran, were not being considered refugees so could not move on and are now in detention centres in Greece. These people are from all over the place aren't they? How can we gereralise about the men from all these places? Whilst many of the countries they come from have high incidence of sexual violence against women, this often seems part of the repressive system in these countries and not necessarily their personal belief system.

BungoWomble, your assertion that 'if it quacks like a duck etc' is rather silly. You still fail to mention if you can back up the notion that they are recent refugees or immigrants and not descended from people living in the country for generations. Or is anyone of such appearance an immigrant in your eyes?

[Pinkchampchoccies]

Thanks Lemon. I have found your posts enlightening and interesting, too. I hope that cold is getting better . My excuse for being glued to this thread is a) personal interest and b) the fact that dc are back at school and I am back at work next week. Obviously I am making the most of it

I am tired of the either or approach when discussing social issues i.e. challenging sexist attitudes of migrant communities = being a racist as indicated by Luna. I am grateful for MN as on the whole balanced discussions are possible here.

Ideally we should help people in Syria etc to build up their country. The International community needs to get its act together and intervene intelligently and effectively. I worry that integration of immigrants is only really feasible with people who are aspirational and who come from more privileged and educated backgrounds. Many, many of the refuges are neither, and will be near impossible to integrate these people into Europe society, as we already know. Those who are not able to find jobs once they are allowed to will compete with other poor Europeans for diminishing resources. This is a reality. It is only a few years ago that we had a massive economic crisis. Many families in the UK are so much worse off now. Brining in more and more people, many of whom (or their children) will not become teachers, doctors, or software developers, or even self-employed cleaners but will live in endless poverty and on the fringes of our society.

[LunaLodbrok]

Pinkchamp and Incanta, the generalisations about Muslims and refugees on this thread are very racist.

[NoSuchThingAsTooMuchLemon]

You want a discussion of both immigration and women's issues together, not as an either/or question in the public sphere. Do really think that's how media discourse works?

What a patronising comment / question. Yes, that's exactly what I want. You obviously consider the public too stupid to discuss more than one issue at a time and see how these issues relate to each other. Possibly best to put a couple of extra football games and another season of Dschungelcamp on so the stupid masses aren't in danger of their brains overheating from thinking too much. Better not even try to have more than a one-dimensional discussion then....

[fourmummy]

Dammit. Keep on reading and then feel compelled to respond. Work will have to wait :)
Pink - Whose rights trump when there is a conflict of interests? Take FGM for example. Is imposing a ban on mutilating female reproductive organs an infringement on the human rights of certain communities? Would banning Internet porn infringe on freedom of speech / 'artistic' expression / commercial enterprise?. This is the problem of relativism, which all human societies have grappled with. Philosophically, there is no way to decide who has it 'right' if we accept that all ideas are human creations. Societies early on recognised this problem, which is one reason why we came to live in bands or tribes and larger societies as we do the world over. Endless iterations of relativism would force people who think "FGM is wrong" to live alongside people who think "FGM is right" because there'd be no way to decide who is actually right. So, who is right? Technically, we can't know. However, we can't live like this, otherwise we'd be giving credence or even accepting this:

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-muslim-cleric-claims-the-earth-is-stationary-and-the-sun-rotates-around-it-10053516.html

Now, there is an outside possibility that this could be correct, philosophically speaking, but given the weight of science, it's highly unlikely. So, we tend to group into loosely banded sections, the members of which all agree on a code of conduct - the social contract. There is one more point to this. Communities which practise science have been disproportionately successful in not only explaining the universe but in improving the standard of living and quality of life for their members relative to other community belief systems. This is obviously a westernised way of looking at this but it seems to work for many people given the seemingly millions who want to live in this way. So, given all this, I can say with confidence that although I don't know for certain (100%) that FGM is bad, I have a pretty good idea (99%) that it is. Therefore, on this basis, my idea is better than yours and therefore trumps yours.

[BungoWomble]

FGS, what is known is that they were of non European appearance, and that those few actually arrested had recently issued residence permits on them.

Actually the last question is more interesting than it appears. In ancient Greece, people from foreign cultures were permitted to settle in some city states, but were not accorded full citizenship until the third generation. Having lived abroad and known immigrants here, even if you want to integrate it is difficult, you never manage to speak a language quite as well as a native.

These men do not want to integrate. They are here en masse. They have attacked us en masse. The police cannot defend us. Law and order broke down in the affected cities that night. How long before it breaks down again? Ignoring the problem of clashing cultures won't make it go away Luna.

[bluebolt]

The worst part of this is that it is sort of a perfect crime, surround women leaving her/them unable to ascertain who has physically assaulted or how many then disappear into crowds leaving the police virtually useless. If the police then try to disperse group of men prior to attacks they are then open to racially profiling.

[uglyswan]

I'm sorry if that sounded patronising, NoSuch. But I said media discourse, not "the stupid public" or "the masses". And if you can show me a mainstream media article that highlights both integration and a need for legal reform to protect women, I'll be happy to eat my words.

[NoSuchThingAsTooMuchLemon]

Thanks Pinkchamp, cold is less bad, so I could probably try and work from home a bit...meh. Instead I will now venture outside and stock up on ice cream (sore throat is such a great excuse) and probably return to this indeed very interesting thread later. Enjoy the rest of your free week!

[SonyaAtTheSamovar]

Bluebolt that seems to be what the official German advice is too: get used to it and adapt your behaviour accordingly.