So is marriage the solution to all social evils?

[BrummieOnTheRun]

"...in the wake of a Tory report that says unmarried parents are driving a generation of children into crime and drug dependency...The Tories claim the rise in cohabitation and single parenthood is unleashing a social and economic crisis.
In an appeal to grassroots supporters, the party will this week put the promotion of marriage back at the heart of its agenda, warning of dire consequences if more couples are not encouraged to wed."

So is the solution marriage, or encouraging more household back into employment?
We married this year after 15 years of sinful co-habiting and I don't feel marriage makes a blind bit of difference to a good relationship. I see the lack of any working role models in these households as being the bigger issue.
But then I'm sure some of these kids are from single-parent households where the mother is killing herself with multiple jobs trying to make ends meet, so...???
Any opinions?
Full article here: /link{http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-2496320,00.html}

Sorry - am X posting like mad here. Patience required!

That's true. Wouldn't it be nice if the Tories had something constructive to offer? Perhaps it shows how out of touch they really are if their solution is "Everyone should get married". It feels like Wizard of Oz thinking from where I am stood.

Caligula, I agree that Labour have introduced tax credits which technically make it worth working. But I think that the difference would really have to be quite large to induce me to go to work instead of looking after my children myself.

I don't believe that a family with two children who have an earned income of 30k would be better off "on benefits" rather than on their earned income

Schools do address that culture in a way because teachers work and they get paid. Children see teachers turning up for work. Schools can only do so much but if the parents have very little aspirations, chances are their children will too and therefore they will not appreciate the benefits of getting an education.

Why is it that many children of immigrant parents can go to schools in deprived areas which tend to be poorly performing and come out with qualifications? Answer, they are motivated and their parents are motivated too and therefore encourage their children to take advantage of what is available to them.

we live in a nice town - a rough street - but overall i live in a place where people come to die near the sea.

my son when almost leaving school had a friend a year older.

this friend had a bedsit cos his mum kicked him out
he was the local stoner - as you can imagine he had lots of parties and loud music and weed.

wow how appealing is that when your nearly 16?

Parenting got him through that.

ask yourself ds " how much money does stonerfirend have now"

ask yourself " how much money will stoney friend have in 5 years?"

"erm the same?!" said ds
"in 10 years where will stonerfriend be?"

Nods seeing my point

thats why your going t o college so you can drive me round in your fancy car when you have completed your apprenticeship. do you think stonerfriend will have fancy car"
"no"

me - i did that.
i got him to college
i steared him away from drugs.
my eldest boys life chances are all becuase I give a shit - education system failed him cmpletely.

so imagine - shit education system and parents who dont rightly give a shit.

see stonerfirend above

there are interesting comparisons between children from different backgrounds, some do have a school and work ethic and some it appears don't

I couldn't agree more w/QuitelyMad.

We are trapped in poverty by high housing costs.

I'm not even talking about mortgages, that's just so far out of reach it's a non-issue. I'm talking about family housing available to rent.

It all ties in w/other issues like public transport.

More and more families have NO choice but to live farther and farther from their workplaces b/c they literally cannot afford to rent a place close by that will accommodate them.

They live in commuting areas, where employment prospects are limited, or semi-rural, rural areas, where the chief industries are low-paying service and agriculture.

On the one hand, you hate to live so far away from work, b/c it means less time w/your family. But on the other, there's no way you can afford to house them properly.

Of course, a lot of people are therefore chosing not to have children at all.

GC, here's the secion I was looking for from a study last year:

-- A two-parent, one-earner family on average income
(£24,000), with a mortgage and two young children (?Mr
and Mrs Average?), is now just over a pound a week per
head better off than a lone-parent household entirely
dependent on the state.
-- Mr and Mrs Average pay over £5,000 a year more in tax
than they receive in benefits. If they break up, however, the
two households can receive £7,000 more in benefits than
they pay in tax.

kids dont see teachers turning up for work - they see figures of authority - who - when they do not protray authority are figures of ridicule. who sit in class letting kids do what they want with bland 50 year old expressions like " its your time your wasting"

give me a brake.

if children could make a rational decision affecting their life chances at 13, 14, 15,16, then we wouldnt need parents and social services.

i meet with school regularly - to make them remember that i give a shit.

still i hear unbelieveable stories from dd about lack of science teachers and people coming in for a day, teachers who leave then to do what they want in a lesson.
"mum please tell school we need proper science teacher the other classes are doing experiments and we havent even done anything and we have sats after xmas!"

there you go a kid of mine begging for a teacher!

'I don't believe that a family with two children who have an earned income of 30k would be better off "on benefits" rather than on their earned income '

I do! I definitely do!

Rent on an average 2-bed flat here is £700/month. Council tax for band C will be £150/month as of next April - includes water, sewage and rubbish collection. Then there's power! Let's just use me as an example. This is a pokey 2-bed, 2nd floor flat. EVERYTHING is electric in here, including storage heaters, and b/c it's a rental, we can't change it.

It's £86/month for power.

Now that right there is nearly £1000/month.

Just for shelter costs. Doesn't include food, nappies, clothes, shoes, transport costs to work, etc.

so why dont people teach their children that having children of their own without financial back up will leave them skint

i do

Sorry, X-posted. Understand the point about peer pressure and bullying. I remember walking down the corridor in school and being punched in the tummy by another black girl because I was seen as a swot who hung round with white girls (the fact that it was mainly white girls in my class seemed lost on them).

However, I had DM & DF who believed in me, my abilities and most importantly, they kept showing me what I could/achieve, if I studied. It takes a combination of selfbelief, self-esteem, motivation and singlemindedness determination to resist debilitating peer pressure but I did it. I decided what was important for me and making friends with bullies was not. I appreciate that for others, their personalities makes it more difficult for them to resist peer pressure.

isn't that the point, though, custardo? it doesn't leave them skint if they stick to 100% benefits - i.e. no working partner in the house. it leaves them much better off.

Re children of immigrants Speedy, I suspect in some cases as well, they have access to an alternative culture and worldview which may help them resist some of the more malign influences of street-culture. Whereas if your parents have grown up with that world-view themselves, unless you're lucky enough to have doors opened to you via other routes, you don't have anywhere else to go, iyswim.

Custy, that school sounds awful and it sounds it needs a headteacher who will provide leadership and engender some pride into the school

In the US they have done some research into the outcomes of children whose parents have divorced. Although most children of divorced parents did less well academically, where the parents were of a higher socio-economic group & well educated themselves the children still did better than those from deprived social & economic backgrounds.
Poverty breeds poverty and crime breeds where poverty & deprivation flourish.

If you control the statistics for couples' socio-economic status and length of relationship, cohabitees don't break up more than married couples in the UK.

cohabitees tend on average to be younger, and also less religious. and as such are likely to be more unstable and more likely to break up. There's no evidence that longer term couples who cohabit are more likely to split up than married couples from a similar sort of background.

I am surprised that 30k is not better than living on benefits

But i'm just not in that kind of income bracket so I don't know how it works

I do find it astonishing that people with incomes over 20k can't manage

it leaves you with no prospects brummie - have kids - go on benefits - dont have kids - not entitled to benefits worth anything may as well go out forge a career in something interesting. ( if i have the education.)

if your on 30K and no kids - seriously your loaded

glenn, dont you have a mortgage? A 2 bed flat costs 150 000 in our town. A fair monthly slice out of a 20K income.

oh and not being on benefits gets your kids the house when you die, it gets you a pension worth having and in some companies private health cover for you and family - not to mention personal welfare, happiness, social interaction, friendships, sense of self, accomplishemtn, prospoects, promotion, all stuff you cant get on benefits if you have kids.

so dont have kids. is the mantra in my overrun teenage house.

I do have a mortgage, yes and high council tax

not that I'm sure where that piece of info fits in

I don't have a pension either neither does dp, so i will have to write that book at some point

how much is a 150K mortgage? around 800 pounds a month? Council Tax & bills = 200

A 20K salary is c1400 pounds a month?

(I am guessing because it is a couple of years since I was working in the UK)

Anyway, it doesnt leave much for frivolities like food and the cost of getting to work.
I would have thought that a family of 4 would get close to 20K in benefits/housing benefit/council tax benefit, and thats without the cost of commuting.