research suggest that juries blame women who drink for their own misfortunes...

[GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille]

......is there a way round this?

Is the mn view very differ4nt to the general public then? The conviction rate for cases of rape is so low that coupled with the fact that most women don't even report it, the chance of a man getting away with remains dperessingly high.

here

I think it's the whole consent issue isn't it. Is a woman too drunk to give consent for sex, and is a man too drunk to be held accountable for his actions.

I'm wrestling with it a bit. All of us (I think) accept that if you are so drunk that you get in a car and drive it, tough shit you've broken the law and you have to take the consequences - your drunkenness is not an excuse for your crime, it's part of your crime. Why should it be any different for a drunk man who is reckless as to the consent or otherwise of a woman? But why should it be any different for a woman giving consent? I'm going round in circles a bit, haven't quite thought it through... someone think for me please!

But in spite of the ambiguities and complexities of issues of consent, drunkeness etc., it still comes down to why do men rape women? And why aren't we as a society framing the debate in those terms, instead of the way we do, which by and large is "why do women get raped?" (In other words making women responsible for rape, rather than men. We pay lip service to the notion that the victim is not responsible, but the whole way it is discussed in public is all about making women responsible - there really is very little mention of why men do it.)

Totally agree with all who say that we seem to concentrate far too heavily on the woman, i.e. the victim, it is utterly depressing.

It is like the excuse of provcation to justify domestic violence and just sickens me.

Am at John Humphreys from what I have read here and I am glad I missed it.

to add to your circles...if a woman got drunk sitting on the edge of a cliff, and she fell off, would people say she was partly to blame for her own misfortune or not?

on mn dangerous territory here.....

It is not surprising that there are so few rape convictions (of those who can face the horrendous scrutiny and judgement they get if they come forward) when such attitudes prevail and get so much attention.

Yes, you would say she was an eejit to drink so much that she fell off the cliff. But... the cliff didn't push her off, so hasn't committed an action against her.

interesting one about the woman on the cliff

i would guess that she was having suicidal thoughts and was taking the alcohol to pluck up courage to jump or palying russian roulette..not a nice position to be in

OH this makes me so and and and and and

Over and over. This is the ONE crime, the ONE crime that the victim is brought to question about their activities leading up to and during the crime. Its truly shocking that this should happen over and over again in this day and age. YES - people should take more precautions with regard to safety. YES - there is far too much binge drinking by teenagers in this country. BUT - these are (or certainly should be) two very separate issues with regard to convicting someone of raping someone who did not or could not give consent to sex.

And ditto everything that Pruni and Caligula said.

I really must get sorted on this...

And again - this highlights the kind of "rarer" cases of rape in the forefront of peoples minds when in fact, most rapes are committed by someone you know and/or feel safe with in the first place and these are the cases that are so much harder to prove.

If you are drinking with someone you feel "safe" with, you are hardly likely to think twice about getting "drunk" or walking home with them.

Xenia - your comment about it being difficult to prove rape if the woman cant remember....I think alot of rapists "use" alcohol etc for this very reason.

vvv you have highlighted the point I was trying to make, about people you know

this is very difficult. I think - I hope - that paranoidsurreyhousewife is right: that it's not about blaming the woman so much as being 100% certain the man is guilty of rape. the rape conviction stats are appalling, but then we'll never know what % they should be, because some rape defendants really are innocent.

All the same I am starting to think that there is a case to be made for professional juries in some cases.

I wondered about professional juries but couldn't quite feel it was the way to go..it would be an interesting discussion to have though..but who would the professionals be as some of thme can be very biased

There's have to be a rigourous selection process, and I mean professional in the sense that the jurors are paid and sit on juries all the time, not that they necessarily come from professional backgrounds. Judges can supposedly put aside their prejudices - I'm sure lesser mortals can do so too, and they don't usually cost as much as judges.

Hi don't agree with "professional juries" - if you are going to do that, you might as well do away with the whole idea of juries and just go for a judge based systems. IMHO there is a good argument for that, however you would be removing justice from the "people" and that would go against hundreds of years of English legal tradition.

Its the usual problem - unless there is strong physical evidence of a struggle, you are looking at one persons word against another. If someone puts themself in a position where to an outsider, it appears they want to have sex with a man (e.g invite man to their flat) then jury is unlikely to convict. This would probably be the same with a judge as it has to be beyond reasonable doublt. That is just a fact of life and some women (not many I know) have made false accusations. Even if there is physical evidence that can be explained away by saying that it was just rough sex. Its a horrible world but I will be advising my dd when the time comes NOT to go to a man's room or invite a man into her room/flat unless she intends to have sex with him.

I think most people will think of advising their DD's along similar lines.

What I wonder is, how many people think of advising their sons not to rape women?

My point being is that once again, we tend to focus on telling girls how not to get raped (all of which is bollocks anyway, because if they are, it will probably be by someone they know and trust). We don't focus on telling boys how not to rape.

There is such a major gap there in everyday discussion of this issue, it screams at me ever more loudly.

You have a really good point. How many mothers actually speak frankly about this to their sons. I suspect that by the time they feel their son is about to become sexually active the whole subject becomes too embaressing. You just assums that your ds would never behave like that but obviously none of the mums of rapists would have wanted their sons to behave like that. I agree that it is parents responsibility to explain what is and is not appropriate to their sons. It is also their responsibility to advise their girls not to act like teases - NO that does not mean that anyone deserves to be raped but it makes it more likely. No should always mean no.

Exactly Caligula. This was a point discussed a few months back. There is a type of 'bravado culture' amongst young men that makes it okay to get a girl so drunk that she is 'compliant'. Its a game to them. Its seen as acceptable to use alcohol or drugs to make a girl "lose her inhibitions".

Its deemed as an acceptable that if a girl changes her mind during an encounter - a boy is entitled to get angry with her.

These are the attitudes that need changing.

Far more than girls need to be told how to protect themselves. There is something wrong with our society that makes it "okay" for boys to get drunk and act irresponsibly, but not "okay" for girls. It is wrong to lay the burden of 'preventing' rape at girls feet. As long as this continues, then I cannot see a change ever happening in the number of rapes committed, or the conviction rate.

Caligula, I do bring up my sons in a way that I hope will result in them not being rapists! They are taught to be considerate of others, and to have enought self respect not to force some woman to sleep with them. I dont specifically sit them down and say "Now I dont want you growing up as rapists, boys", because I dont think that is the best means to the end.

Rape is a terible terrible trauma for anyone to go through
I know that when i am very drunk i dont remember half of what i have done and it is my responsibility to take responsibility for my self and make sure that i dont get into that state or a vunerable position,

I t is all to easy to say that someone has sexually assulted you when you regret something,

Someone very close to me is going through this right now, he had sex with a girl they were both drunk, she woke up few hours later and realised she had made a mistake, (she had a long term boyfriend, who she had split up with the day before) she obviously regretted it and rather than let it go she cry's rape and he is arrested and facing many years in prison, he wont survive prison, he would be eaten alive, he is a peace loving animal loving organic loving hippy.....
it has basically torn all our lives apart...

i dont for one minute say that women are to blame for there misfortunes if they are drunk and no man should ever take advantage
i guess now i have felt the other side it is harder for me,

it must be very hard for jury's to decide any outcome, it is one word against the other and if they make the wrong choice then many lives are ruined...

Rape used to be very violent attacks where women are dragged off the streets etc, but it isnt like that any more

Its a really difficult area. I think its best to advise ds s NOT ever to have sex with a girl if they have been drinking and make sure they are absolutely certain that the girl is consenting.

Unfortunately because of our up tight British culture many sexual encounters do tend to happen for the first time after much alcohol has been drunk. This needs to change.

I'm sorry to hear of what your friend is going thru sw. The chances of him being convicted by a jury are miniscule, this is just the sort of case the CPS hates prosecuting because the chances of success are practically zero. If its one persons word against another and both parties have been drinking most people (male and female) will not convict as it has to be beyond reas doubt.

"I t is all to easy to say that someone has sexually assulted you when you regret something," is it? Too much of a sweeping statement sw for me to give it any credence. I'd say that it was extremely unusual for this to happen. (I cant comment on your friends case - I dont know enough details.)

"Rape used to be very violent attacks where women are dragged off the streets etc, but it isnt like that any more " with all due respect - this is utter rubbish. This is the kind of myth i'd like to stop people perpetuating.

Rape is - and always has - been a crime of power and compulsion. It rarely does or ever has involved some stranger jumping out of a bush. One of the main reasons that rapes arent reported, IME and IMO is because the perpetrator is known well enough to the victim and immediate circle.

I would say your friend will be lucky - only 5% of reported rape cases end with a conviction - well over 50% of those cases are those which involve "stranger" rape. I'd say your friend has a pretty good chance of getting off - guilty or not.

I'd like to say I'm shocked by the original article or comments made by Jon Humphries but I'm not and this is the battle that we are still up against these days in getting rape conviction rates up etc. Too many victims do not have the faith in the justice system in this country or even the support to stand up and report this crime because of attitudes like this and its appalling. Its easy to say that it is an individuals responsibility to take care of themselves when out but when you have one glass of wine that had a drug slipped in it when you dropped your keys on the floor (for example) how are you supposed to protect yourself against that? In my mind there is only ever one reason for drugging someone that you don't know and its to commit an illegal act. Loosening someone up to have sex is still inciting rape as you are attempting to get them to do something they wouldn't by artificial means beyond their control. It angers me that society still does not in general recognise a victim of rape just that: a victim and still looks for ways to blame that individual rather than the perpertrators themselves. Why can we still not get past this?? When i go out now I see younger girls obliterated and I sometimes see men on the outskirts keeping an eye on them recognising they are vulnerable and it makes me sick to my stomach as I remember being those girls and i remember the situation I've been in. I go out of my way to make sure when I see that I do anything I can to ensure that however that girl leaves its with someone she knows and safely but what are these men who wait to pounce on these girls doing??? I remind all our male friends with daughters who sometimes make inappropriate comments along these lines that someday it could be their daughter and it really does make them think about it differently and sharpen into focus what women have to go out and put up with.
Sigh I know I've gone into one and if anyone's actually managed to read this far I do apologise - just touched a bit of a nerve!!!

I agree that alcohol brings out the worst in some men. Some men are and always will be sexual predators. They will take advantage of females that are drunk. Up to recently this has been encouraged and condoned in literature and films.

This is just a fact of human life. To a certain extent young males are biologically programmed to want to f* young females. Its only in the last 20/30 years that females have been out getting this drunk. They are putting themselves into jeopardy unfortunately and it is not surprising that rapes have greatly increased.

If you have two inebriated people a jury is very unlikely to convict in the absence of other corroborating evidence - I don't think any amount of "re education will change that and TBH I don't know if it should. How can you ever be certain what happened when you are dealing with two drunk people??

I think the only chance of reducing the amount of rapes is (a) introducing an education campaign at senior schools aimed at teenage boys stressing the need to ensure that the female has consented and the difficulties of getting real consent if girl is drunk (b) warning girls of the risks of getting raped if they get totally pissed and (c) [this is a big one] making it harder for youngsters to get hold of alcohol, e.g putting the price up

But not to rape them. They are not biologically programmed to seek vulnerable women out and rape them. They may be culturally encouraged to think it is ok to do so but I don't think there is any way that you can argue that it is genetically inbuilt.

I agree with Vicky that it is not a new thing that has started up in the last few years when we used to have the comfortable situation of only having rapists jumping out of bushes to worry about.

Why is the feamle not believed if she says she has been raped. When on the other hand people say that men can't help it? No wonder women still can't bring themselves to report rape. Who would.

You have a man you know. You have had sex with him on several occasions. How hard is it to report the time/s he rapes you.

You meet someone and you let him come home with you. You realise that you don't want to have sex, it's not the right time, you don't know him well enough, he seems a bit odd now he's in your room and you really want him to go but he doesn't.

Boyfriend comes home and shouts and rages. You have a bath. meanwhile, he has been out and got wine and flowers to make up. Wine is drunk. He turns verbally nasty again and you say you're going to bed he comes after and says have you forgotten something love even if you have i haven't. Rape. How hard is it to report when it's happened ?