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Original poster

research suggest that juries blame women who drink for their own misfortunes...

85 replies

GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 07/12/2006 12:24

......is there a way round this?

Is the mn view very differ4nt to the general public then? The conviction rate for cases of rape is so low that coupled with the fact that most women don't even report it, the chance of a man getting away with remains dperessingly high.

here

OP posts:
Original poster
GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 09:57

I did see that report..it is a complex issue as again I think people do have their drinks spiked but are not necessarily tested afterwards..hospitals don't test as a matter of course and the ploice are not necessarily contacted because unless a woman makes a complaint they obviously don't follow anything up. Hospitals tend to say that there is no pint testing because unless the woman is going to complain it doesn't matter and also they say that drugs disappear quickly and won't be found.

So many things deter women from reporting rape and so many factors seem to make men think it is ok to "warm women up". They also find it acceptable to lay bets etc etc.

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foundintranslation · 08/12/2006 10:02

Agree absolutely with Caligula. Yes, women who get very drunk are making themselves more vulnerable, but why is it always about women - what they drink, how they dress, when and with whom they go out, etc. etc.? Why is the focus never on the fact that men are, or should be, responsible for not taking advantage of a woman no longer reasonably able to consent? Public debate on these matters always seems to be about women modifying their behaviour and very rarely about men modifying theirs.

Original poster
GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 10:09

women believe this though

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orangecake · 08/12/2006 10:14

Men do need to modify their behaviour I agree but how confusing must that be when they are brought up by their parents for example to respect women and never to 'take advantage' then are given a very conflicting message by young girls who egg them on. I'm not saying women shouldn't dress sexily or drink alcohol (I will go out and wear what I bloody well like, spend time with my friends and drink what I want) but I wouldn't stand there in a pub and flash my boobs, get men I don't know to them come and fondle them, lick red wine of my nipples and feeling their groins. I have seen this behaviour on quite a few occassion...and it was so obvious that this women and her friends were going to end having sex with someone (anyone?)that night. That's fine and good on her, but I just have a horrible feeling that if she woke up next to aman she didn't really fancy the next morning, she might be so disgusted with herself that she would be inclined to report rape??? I Don't know.

Sorry for the graphic description there - perhaps I need to move to a different town!

orangecake · 08/12/2006 10:20

Just to add, that on this occassion the men were completely plastered too. Very few people in the pub that night were sober or acting 'responsibly'.

(Apart from me obviously!)Extended licencing hours in pubs is a recipie for disaster imo.

satine · 08/12/2006 10:21

I wouldn't walk by myself along a deserted alleyway in a city at night, as I know it would put me in a vulnerable position were a mugger/attacker to see me. In the same way, I wouldn't get blind drunk in a situation where there wasn't a trusted person to look after me (well, I probably wouldn't get blind drunk at all, but for the sake of argument), as it's just madness to put yourself in a state where you're not sure what's going on, and you can't look after yourself.
I would never 'blame' a drunken woman who was attacked, and her attacker is utterly at fault, but it's just not sensible to put yourself in such vulnerable positions.

morocco · 08/12/2006 10:41

the worst part of that article for me was about it being Ok to spike a drink to 'loosen someone up'. Where did that attitude come from???

that disgusting attitude aside, who speaks to young people (god that makes me feel old!) about all this stuff these days anyway? I'd want my kids to be well aware of all the dangers of going out and getting too pissed to know what you're doing and being unable to protect yourself - and that ranges from getting badly beaten up to being sexually attacked- and looking out for your mates. Why can't they talk about this kind of stuff in schools as well? and campaigns on tv about the benefits of not getting completely bladdered? honestly - I do despair of this country sometimes.

DINOsaurmummykissingsantaclaus · 08/12/2006 10:51

I find it so depressing that, nearly 30 years after I was raped myself as a 13 year old, there is still this prevailing attitude that sex is something that men overwhelmingly want and have to have, and that women have to be "loosened up"/cajoled/forced into it.

I wonder how much the lads' mag culture is to blame for the continuance of this attitude? I've never read one myself but read some choice quotes from one in an article in (where else) the Guardian (by a young male journalist). It was vile stuff, and to me seemed even more pernicious than out and out porn.

Original poster
GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 10:52

the other factor is that and I'll try to put this delicately..a woman may have a liking for someone or be in a relationship with them but she is not happy about the kind of sexual activity involved and in my opinion if a woman does not want that kind of sex then it is rape..how does she protect herslef against that or come to the realsiation that..all she can do is not see the man again (and he may live with her)or be local etc etc but she can't do anything about the rape itself it seems

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Pruni · 08/12/2006 11:00

Message withdrawn

Pruni · 08/12/2006 11:00

Message withdrawn

Original poster
GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 11:08

I'm not at all convinced by the misleading signals and it being unclear whether a woman is consenting either..it would be interesting to have men's opinion on this as there is i believe a doing it for a laugh or i am entitled as she is drunk machismo

misleading singals are going back to the idea of women leading men on..surely men should be realisitic and hold back if they are not sure..like I said men could choose toescort a woman home and sleep on the sofa or go home themselves for the avoidance of doubt or just cuddle

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ChristmasCaroligula · 08/12/2006 11:22

Spot on Pruni.

Why are we talking about women's behaviour? Why aren't we talking about men's?

DINOsaurmummykissingsantaclaus · 08/12/2006 11:24

Absolutely, Caligula and Pruni.

Callisto · 08/12/2006 11:25

Of course the behaviour of men needs to be looked at but this is real life and atm women need to look after themselves. I don't buy into the blame culture at all. Yes accidents happen but we make our own fate and should be responsible for our own actions. Why is it so wrong to face facts and tell women 'If you go out dressed like that and get pissed and act that way, your chances of being raped increase hugely'? It is the truth, however unpalatable. The behaviour of men hasn't changed much for thousands of years and I can't see it changing any time soon.

DINOsaurmummykissingsantaclaus · 08/12/2006 11:31

Rape is the only crime where people blame the victim! I'm sure there have been thieves since the dawn of time, but blimey, if someone comes into your house and takes your things without permission, that's still theft!

Callisto · 08/12/2006 11:34

I don't think these days the victim is blamed for the rape surely? I don't think anyone blames true date rape victims either do they?

DINOsaurmummykissingsantaclaus · 08/12/2006 11:35

Sorry, Callisto, when you said that we make our own fate, that sounded quite close to blaming the victim?

ChristmasCaroligula · 08/12/2006 11:36

Callisto the reason it is wrong to focus on that to the exclusion of the other, is that for centuries we have indeed focussed on that, it's been done to death and focussing on it hasn't solved the issue of rape. Perhaps we need to take a new tack...

BrummieOnTheRun · 08/12/2006 11:49

Callisto, that comment has echoes of the Australian imam who said unveiled women who wore make up were like uncovered meat that inevitably attracted 'cats'. Ok, really bad paraphrasing, but you know what I mean!

Would it really be an inconceivable world in which a bloke saw a woman paralytic through alcohol and knew it was unacceptable to sleep with her. Regardless of whether he feels he's been 'invited' to or not. ?

Actually I do agree that women need to be more responsible, but ANY level of alcohol has been used to throw out rape cases. So why not remove alcohol from the debate completely and dis-allow it as a mitigating factor in any rape case.

If it was removed from the equation, any sensible bloke wouldn't touch a pissed woman with a barge-pole for fear of litigation.

Original poster
GlennCloseAsCruellaDeVille · 08/12/2006 12:06

I think men in fact feel that if drink is involved they have carte blanche to do as they like..no wonder they help women drink too much

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Callisto · 08/12/2006 12:09

My 'make our own fate' comment was in general and not about rape cases in particular. I find being compared to the Ozzie Imam offensive and unecessary so perhaps you would like to retract that comment?

I haven't once said that we should exclusively look at women's behaviour but the 'women should be able to do what they like and take no responsibility for their actions' lines I have been reading on this thread are unrealistic and naive.

BrummieOnTheRun · 08/12/2006 12:23

Oh Callisto, I wasn't implying you were like the Ozzie imam! It was an extreme example, I know, so please don't take offense. But that guy's comments are the logical extention of some of the attitudes that have been widely expressed in the media about women's behaviour and 'what do you expect'.

We need to deal with a really unhealthy attitude to alcohol in this country by both sexes (complex one).

But i suspect that the number of rape cases that involve a drunk woman where the woman has consented and then either a) forgotten she consented; or b) regretted it and therefore lies about consent is minute. (Would be interesting to know).

Yet these examples are being used as the primary reason why the approach to rape/alcohol cases can't be changed. it's a red herring.

ChristmasCaroligula · 08/12/2006 13:55

But Callisto, you're not asking women to take responsibility for their own actions. You're asking women to take responsibility for men's actions. Which is asking a little too much, imo.

orangecake · 08/12/2006 14:27

Can I just add here (because I had to go out and while I have been away, I have missed lots of posts and I don't think I have explained myself properly)that rape is rape is rape - full stop.

It's inexcusable. My concern (and I speak as a mother of sons and daughters here) that some women are accusing men of raping them simply because they couldn't remember giving consent (because they were too drunk/high/whatever). Some of these cases have probably been thrown out of court but perhaps some men have been wrongly convicted too.

My heart goes out to any man who has been wrongly accused (never mind convicted)of rape as much as it does to a women who has been raped and perhaps felt to intimidated by our laughable legal/court system to report it.