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No legal aid = baby adopted

943 replies

CFSKate · 09/10/2015 07:54

I saw this on Channel 4 News yesterday, I only saw it part way through, but it went something like this, there was a couple who were accused of abusing their child, they couldn't get legal aid, the court had the child adopted, and then it went to court again and new evidence said there was a medical condition and the parents weren't guilty of abuse, but the adoption is final, they can't get their baby back.

OP posts:
Owllady · 11/10/2015 17:56

The boy should go back to his biological mum and dad and adoptive mum and dad should be given contact
Social services may not work like that but even from the children with disabilities team, I've been manipulated by inadequate social workers

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 18:00

I think all meetings should be recorded

I considered foster to adopt. I couldn't do it, neither emotionally nor practically. Emotionally I couldn't foster a small child for 6 months plus knowing hat it could become my child then let it go if birth parents are found competent to parent or other birth family are found. Also I couldn't afford to take 6-12 months off work and then if the adoption bit fell through and the child went back, take another 6-12 months off to try again. Perhaps as someone suggested upthread that makes me not the kind of person who should be adopting.

I also suspect we're getting to the stage that adoptive parents are going to insist on being legally represented - which will be a shame because I don't see the state funding it which means adoption will become the preserve of the affluent.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 11/10/2015 18:08

I think all SW should have to use double recordings for all meetings and a copy of one provided to the parents, I think it should be standard practise and a great many SW's agree with me. It's also fair to say a great many don't but I don't see what there is to be scared about tht sort of evidence.

Christinayangstwistedsista · 11/10/2015 18:13

Needs

If their practice is good then they have nothing to worry about... If being the operative word

It would also be interesting to see how many got regular supervision

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 18:16

I've recorded my fair share of board meetings without concern if only to make sure my notes afterwards were completely accurate.

Booboostwo · 11/10/2015 19:28

Her's why my hair stands on end with this case (apologies for the length but it only makes sense in context):

When my DD was 16mo she fell over on her bum, perfectly normal non-event but for some reason she was screaming afterwards and would not settle. We took get to A&E where we were told we wee PFB, toddlers don't break bones like that, no x-Ray as exposure to radiation is dangerous. Three days later we saw a family friend, a paediatric orthopedic surgeon, who confirm this opinion so we flew to France (originally in Greece our home country). Ten days later DD would still not put her foot down so we popped in our local hospital who decided to admit us to clear it all up.

Two days of exams later no answer, so I insisted on an x-Ray. Turns out she had a hairline fracture of the left tibia...and an old, healed complete break of her left fibula. This was met with shock by everyone. DD was sent for full body x-Rays which were luckily clear and I was taken into a room and asked if DH hit her, which he had never done and neither had I. X-Rays were sent round the country and came back with a possible diagnosis of osteogenesis imperfecta (brittle bone disease). At this stage we were allowed to leave as it was no longer an emergency and we needed a specialist.

Right before discharge the doctor took DH aside and told him I had done this to DD. he said I must have let her fall and had hid the accident because DD was too clingy - DD was stil bf at that stage which was judged to be abnormal and stuck onto me because she was terrified (in admissions the nurse tried to insert a line in five different sites, inserting the needle multiple times at each site with no success, five people held her down for a scintigraphy with no sedation - that was why she was freaked).

It took us a month to find an OI specialist. He took one look at the x-Ray and referred us again, turns out DD has a genetically abnormal tibia, which had a cyst that caused a break when she was too young to have many nerve endings so it would not have been apparent when it happened.

As an aside while we thought it was OI we talked with a lot of families who had huge problems with social services. Every time they attended A&E they carried letters from their specialists to explain the condition, they had lists of friendly specialists who were willing to be contacted day and night to confirm this was OI and not abuse, they were too scared to go on holidays and find themselves in hospitals where their children and their condition was unknown.

The whole experience was horrific. I can't believe the doctors observed me with my DD over four days and concluded I had harmed her and was willing to put her through the tests rather than admit to an accident. Not to mention the bloody uselessness of the doctors who misinterpreted the x-Ray to such a terrible extent.

Anyway, there but for the grace of God go I.

Maryz · 11/10/2015 19:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Lurkedforever1 · 11/10/2015 20:09

Agree re the double recording.

maryz But how much damage do you think just that temporary care does even if they aren't adopted? What do the children gain from it, except the knowledge they might be taken away again, and a lifetime hatred of ss? Not to mention the possibility of losing your child is one of the worst scenarios possible for any loving parent.
Ask yourself honestly, if you had pnd or any other depressive type mh problem and someone took your children incorrectly, how highly would you rate your chances of conquering the mh issue while you knew that baby or children were crying for you, or begging to come home. I'll honestly say that starting from a strong position I'd battle through to get my child back, and die trying, but I don't think I could truthfully say that if I was starting from a vulnerable position I wouldn't crack and break if my child was taken. And I wouldn't believe anyone who said they could hand on heart say they wouldn't break either unless they've already done it.

Maryz · 11/10/2015 20:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

combined02 · 11/10/2015 20:24

Spero, thanks for your response - if you were advising a couple in their position, and you were confident that there had indeed been a miscarriage of justice, what would your advice be? And how would any court action be paid for.

In relation to the meeting in November, do the attendees get to contribute to the debate? Can we provide you with our comments and at your discretion you could advocate our proposals?! I am kidding. Actually, no I am not...

Presumably the adoptive parents could if they wished return the child to state care (even if they stay looking after the child day to day) until discussions and decisions had been made. Having read many of the threads in the Adoption section, I suspect that the adoptive parents will indeed find it hard, judging by the utter desperation of so many of the prospective adopters to have a child in the first place. And as a pp has said they may not have the full picture themselves.

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 20:30

I'm not at all sure that you can just "return the child to state care" how would that work? Confused Hello social services can I revoke my parental rights and sign them over to you? No I'm still going to look after the child as if she were mine, I just don;t want to be responsible for her legally.

"No go away"

Parents don't get to just decide they don't want to be legally responsible for their child anymore.

Maybe you're right, maybe it is possible. BUt I don't see what advantage there is to it?

combined02 · 11/10/2015 20:33
  • re my first para I meant, badly put, what legal action is available, UK or ECHR, now, if any, and would there be public funding available? I should read before pressing the post message button.
shazzarooney99 · 11/10/2015 20:34

Its disgusting isnt it? it makes you scared of asking for help especially when you have a child with Sen and thats quite sad.

combined02 · 11/10/2015 20:37

Kewcumber, I thought that adoptive parents do have that option - and use it - there are reportedly high numbers of adoption failures - am I wrong?

combined02 · 11/10/2015 20:41

Kewcumber, the day to day reference was to do with ensuring continuity of care, rather than saying "I don't want legal responsibility".

NeedsAsockamnesty · 11/10/2015 20:44

I'm compleatly with you on the JH and IJ thing and I think they do more to undermine CP then most other things put together (really surprised they haven't shown up on this thread like normal given that some plonker mentioned the name up thread)

But if you consider the reasons they get drawn into these "I did nothing wrong" stories is usually because they are not experanced specialists so they genuinely do not understand why something's are considered to be child abuse.

But if you have a La SW acting in a certain way and you also have another qualified SW who has access to all the info the LA one has who is saying "hmmmm what are you thinking, this is not right nor an accurate account of what happened" the moral thing to do is consider your next step very carefully and honestly. Rather than plough on.

I compleatly agree that as far as adoption is fairly unusual when big mistakes have happened in many cases and that yes it's far more usual with CO. But normal families do not see a CO as "just" a CO it will always be SS took my child.

And I agree ith cock up rather than anything else. But the reason why does not change the outcome.

Talking about recording I'm always very open about doing so and the reason for doing it,most of the LA SW's are quite possitive about it, I've had a few terminate meetings in quite a hostile way then write in their notes that the client refused to engage or behaved aggressively because apparently recording for minute purposes is aggressive. Strangely enough these are the very same SW that we have issues with again and again with many different clients.

People should get medical attention for a child who needs it in a timely fashion no matter what their personal feelings about the risk to themselves,immnot entirely sure it's appropreate to fret about people being put off doing so because tbh if you allow fear over referral to prevent obtaining needed medical treatment then you possibly do need a bit of low level support and you should be able to obtain that without risk. If you cannot then it is a problem with the service and how people in it behave. I will reiterate 99% of the SW I come into contact with are good at their jobs and decent human beings just like most other employees

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 20:45

I know only one adoption disruption and that was prior to the order so the child was still a looked after child. Once the adoption order is final you have the same right to persuade social services to take on your child as any other parent. But it's generally (in my limited personal experience) because the child is unmanageable at home for some reason. In the case I knew personally the child was abusing another child in the house and had severe attachment issues and the psychologist agreed that the child should never have been placed in a family with other children (even their own bio sibling).

Like any children in care my understanding is that's its more likely that the parent still has PR but the child doesn't live with you - what you're suggesting is the other way around and what would the benefit be.

I know an adopted teenager who lives in an approved boarding school because of his problems with violence. His parents visit regularly and certainly wouldn't consider that they have given him back!

So no, once the adoption order is final you don't have the option of ticking the "not suitable" box and sending the child back like catalogue goods.

Lurkedforever1 · 11/10/2015 20:46

I agree kew. Much as I think a return to the birth parents is the long term best outcome, a return to being a state ward in the meantime is of no benefit to anyone. I'd say start the contact, provide a shit load of counselling all round, and the second the adoption is overturned in court have a special guardianship order in place for the adoptive parents, until the child can move back ft to birth parents. And fucking scour the country for the best sws there are to make sure the adoptive parents aren't scared witless by some back covering cunt trying to convince them the criminal acquittal doesn't mean they aren't abusive. And to officiate if they ever recover enough to adopt again. And shoot ban everyone at fault in this case from working in any public office ever again. Ditto anyone else who's caused permanent damage to any other child or family.

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 20:49

I've just found a study by Bristol Univerisyt on post adoption. It confirms "It should be noted that in the UK there is no statutory basis for revocation of an Adoption Order except by the making of another Adoption Order"

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 20:51

"UK studies that have separated out disruptions pre and post order report a disruption rate of 4%-11% post order"

The range is dependent on age at adoption generally

combined02 · 11/10/2015 20:57

I really don't know the answer but when you say "except by the making of another Adoption Order" does it clarify on what basis and who can seek the revised Adoption Order?

combined02 · 11/10/2015 20:59

I had understood that even as an adult, an adopted person could not seek a revised AO to be "unadopted" but that any time an adopted parent could. But as I have said, this is absolutely not my area in terms of law, and a family lawyer would have to advise! What I read might have been applicable in the US (or not at all)

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 20:59

Same as any other Adoption Order I guess, there isn;t a special adoption order for previously adopted children.

combined02 · 11/10/2015 21:00

*adoptive parent I mean

Kewcumber · 11/10/2015 21:02

I've never heard of being able to revoke an adoption order

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