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No legal aid = baby adopted

943 replies

CFSKate · 09/10/2015 07:54

I saw this on Channel 4 News yesterday, I only saw it part way through, but it went something like this, there was a couple who were accused of abusing their child, they couldn't get legal aid, the court had the child adopted, and then it went to court again and new evidence said there was a medical condition and the parents weren't guilty of abuse, but the adoption is final, they can't get their baby back.

OP posts:
RussianTea · 09/10/2015 08:45

Ok so when you say the pro-adoption lobby put children's needs as highest priority then you mean their short term needs rather than their long term wellbeing?

No (and yes).

I'm commenting on what they ( pro-adopters) always say, which is always a bald, undifferentiated 'child's best interests'. I'm not sure this is a debate that should be dominated by one interested group.

In a case like this one, there is no one simple course that serves the child's best interests. The injustice has already caused the conflict about what is best for them.

But I can see a possible argument that short term disruption is less damaging than the long-term damage of the adoptive placement continuing.

claig · 09/10/2015 08:49

I don't like Douglas Carswell, but at least he is one of the few politicians halfway on the track of doing the right thing

"The Injustice of Secret Courts"

www.talkcarswell.com/home/2869

RussianTea · 09/10/2015 09:02

Oh claig, really.

bec232 · 09/10/2015 09:04

This is just an awful case, the child should never have been adopted until the case had been concluded. Children regularly are fostered for that length of time.
I'm minded of the foster to adopt scheme, there have been several heartbreaking cases where the baby has been removed from the carers after a year or so as the right of the birth family and the child to be raised within the birth family have overruled the foster carers position. The weakness of the scheme being that many foster carers are told the adoption will be going through. Heartbreak in all sides
Admittedly the timescale here is longer. Is that right? I don't know.
There are no easy answers, my eldest (I'm under a namechange here after the hacking fiasco) was kept with her birth mother for far too long enabling such damage to be done. So I can see why ss acted as they did. On the other hand it was a mistake, we all make them but sadly the one who stands to lose most here is the baby.
Either removed from the family that have raised and loved him, all he has ever known or have to face the hideous realisation when he is older that this happened and a mistake denied him the right to be raised with his birth parents who did nothing wrong. Will he blame his adoptive parents for denying him that chance? Essentially Depriving him of a family for the second time?
Or the reverse of course, remove him and will he forever blame his birth parent s even subconsciously for that? For tearing him from everything he's ever known and loved?
The legality of the adoption order however I can also see must be preserved. He is their son in everywhere and especially as an adoptive parent I see the importance most of for the child of preserving the sanctity of that order. However it was granted.
Does that trump the child right to grow up with its birth family, I just don't know.
The attachment side is even trickier the psychological trauma of the severing of a bond is so little understood and too often underplayed. When does it become a factor that is insurmountable? 6 months, 4 years, 8? Many children are placed at a much older age my eldest included and positively become fully attached to their parents enabling them the chance at love, stability a family that the birth family cannot provide.
But given that the birth family here can should the chance be taken? Is it in the child's best interest?
As I said no easy answers anywhere.

BertieBotts · 09/10/2015 09:10

The thing is it sounds really simple and obvious to say of course - return the child to their birth parents, but I don't think it is as simple as that and it must be looked at as to what is best for the child. Perhaps in some cases it would be better for the child to be returned but in other cases it wouldn't.

In any case it's an horrific situation for all involved.

"surely there is a case to be argued for no child being placed for adoption till the parents have had their day in court."

I agree with this and I'm shocked that this isn't the case already.

ivykaty44 · 09/10/2015 09:22

If a child can be taken from a family at three years old and placed with foster parents then adopted - why shouldn't this child be taken and placed with foster parents and then transfered back to the biological parent.
In the interest of a child that would be best for the child in the long term to groe up in their own family with thuer own parents and siblings.

Yes traumatic for the adoptive parents but it must be in the best interests of the child

The court had made a big mistake, they need to put this right for the child's sake

I would want to take action if I was taken from my parents, adopted then not be given back when the mistake was unfolded - why shouldn't I grow up with my own bio parents due to a mistake?

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 09/10/2015 09:29

There was three years between the child being taken to hospital and them suspecting abuse, and the child being adopted. For two years, and until last year, the couple had contact with the child. When the adoption was finalised last year, contact ceased.

It is a bit of an unusual case in that an infant bleeding from the mouth, with indications of a broken jaw, is going to be a rare representation and abuse did need to be ruled out. It seems it took a very long time for the blood condition to be diagnosed.

So how long do you keep young children in foster care, bearing in mind that the family court had decided that this was abuse, and three years has passed? For the foster parents, having a child who could be taken away at any point for three years would be very difficult.

I'm wondering if the foster parents would consider allowing access again, as the birth parents did have it until last year, but that's very different to the type of adoption that seems to have been agreed and I'm not sure who would win a legal challenge to that, probably the new adoptive parents.

The couple must be in so much pain that they lost their child, but there are so many children who die from abuse too, and somehow it needs to be balanced so that those who are being abused or at risk can be removed and resettled with a new family as quickly as possible, so they spend critical years with primary caregivers in a family environment, and so that adoptive families are more likely to be found. Is it fair to anyone to make that wait longer than three years?

I suppose it depends if the courts knew that the baby had a potential diagnosis which would challenge the abuse ruling, or if that came out of the blue after the adoption had gone through.

Obs2015 · 09/10/2015 10:51

This has just been on 'This morning'. The Social Worker came off badly.
The child was removed at 6 weeks old. It's taken 3 years and has only now hit the media.

Denise Robertson was saying that these tragedies are common and she listed a couple of cases.
At least the biological parents gave a chance now, assuming that the fact it is in the media helps their case rather than hinders it.

Sansoora · 09/10/2015 11:01

Its almost as if the social workers were wringing their hands with glee at the prospect of getting a tiny baby on their books and out for adoption asap.

The poor mum had to refer to her child as 'the child' throughout the interview.

floatyflo · 09/10/2015 11:08

I just don't understand why they can't now have their child back?!
If you wrongly imprisoned for something, then new evidence came to light that proved your innocence, you wouldn't be left in prison, you'd be freed.

Apologies if that is dumb and naive comparison, but if someone can explain why they can't have their child back?

TinklyLittleLaugh · 09/10/2015 11:14

There seem to be a few of these cases where abuse turns out to be a medical condition.

When I was a young mum a long time ago I met an utterly broken lady who had had her child removed for neglect and adopted. It was then discovered that the child had CF, but too late for this lady.

Surely obvious medical checks, for things like CF, rickets, and brittle bone conditions need to be built into the system before these irreversible decisions are made.

I do think the child in this case would be best served by going back to his birth parents.

hairbrushbedhair · 09/10/2015 11:16

The adopters were granted legal parental rights over the child

You can't just say oops and terminate their legal rights to the child. This isn't their fault either

Everyone is a victim (except the courts, medical professionals, social workers etc obviously who all deserve to be prosecuted for this tragedy)

claig · 09/10/2015 11:18

'Apologies if that is dumb and naive comparison, but if someone can explain why they can't have their child back?'

It is not dumb at all, but you won't find a single craven politician prepared to stand up to it.

bec232 · 09/10/2015 11:21

They can't just have their child back because it is under law no longer their child.
The child has legal parents and they are not them.

floatyflo · 09/10/2015 11:22

*The adopters were granted legal parental rights over the child

You can't just say oops and terminate their legal rights to the child. This isn't their fault either*

But why??

Surely this case deserves such exceptional circumstances?

AnchorDownDeepBreath · 09/10/2015 11:23

You'd destroy the foster and adoption system if the legal system allowed children to be returned.

Having been a child looking for a home, and seen my sisters do the same, there really aren't enough. There are even fewer for older children, and there'd be almost none who would welcome a child if they were at risk of being returned.

There are obviously some people who don't for the child, and would be happy to see the child go back to his parents and perhaps raise another. But the vast majority are looking for another family member, for whatever reason, and want the child to be with them permanently - rather like a birth child, I suppose.

The fault may boil down to whether there were any signs of medical issues during the three years, or if it was discovered after the adoption went through. It might just be terrible timing and an awful situation, but after three years, the chances of the abuse allegations being proved wrong must have been small.

squidzin · 09/10/2015 11:25

Access to legal aid would have saved this family. Another element of Tory cuts, which has resulted in the less well off being unable to afford representation. (The means tested "free" element has virtually disappeared).

www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-183c-Lord-Bach-to-lead-inquiry-into-Tories-legal-aid-cuts#.VheVQ8_TWKA

Corbyn has appointed Lord bach to investigate. Legal professionals and threatening to strike.

squidzin · 09/10/2015 11:28

This is awful "a few of these cases" the poor child. The poor mum and dad. It's everyone's worst nightmare to have your baby taken away. And to be accused of abuse on top of that.

Another social services nightmare.

floatyflo · 09/10/2015 11:28

risk of being returned

This sticks in my throat because so they well should be returned if the parents did NOTHING wrong.

I suppose it is difficult for me to not look at this subjectively. I just feel heartbroken for the birth parents.

hairbrushbedhair · 09/10/2015 11:30

Rather than changing the law to make adoption potentially reversible which I would be wholeheartedly against

And as well as providing legal aid for anyone risking having a child removed in the same way any offender gets legal aid

There should be a law bought in to check for all known medical conditions even rare ones in suspected abuse cases. It is possible for a child to have a condition AND be abused but they should be required to check. It's not anymore invasive to subject young children to medical tests than it is to rip them from their families

Obs2015 · 09/10/2015 11:32

There was a panorama programme in January this year of a similar case. Miscarriage of justice.
The doctor in that case was Dr Joanna fairhurst. Guess who the doctor was in this case?
This is turning into a Roy meadows - Sally Clarke type scenario.

hairbrushbedhair · 09/10/2015 11:34

ShockShockShock the same doctor made the mistake twice in one year ???

Or the same doctor reported on the cases?

Sansoora · 09/10/2015 11:35

What would happen if the couple decided to have another baby. Would they be 'allowed' to so to speak or would SS try and take a new baby away as well.

Obs2015 · 09/10/2015 11:39

It wasn't abuse. It was vin willebrands II - a blood condition that causes unexplained bruising.

Dr Joanna fairhurst missed that. How embarrassing.
She should be struck off post investigation.

TinklyLittleLaugh · 09/10/2015 11:39

And even putting all the adults feelings aside, and thinking purely of the child, surely it is better for him to go back to his birth family than to grow up and feel he was somehow stolen. It is bound to impact on his relationship with his adoptive parents.

I've read reports about children who were removed from their birth parents by the political regime in Chile. And even though they were raised with love by their adoptive parents, many of them totally rejected them for their birth parents when they discovered the truth in adulthood.

Obviously the difference here is that this adoption is a mistake not a crime, but it is more than possible the child could have similar feelings.

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