Penelope Leach attacks Gina Ford, apparently

[emkana]

here

Haven't read PL, haven't read GF.

Have two sons: one was a nightmare sleeper who didn't sleep through the night til he was 3 years old but was an utter delight, tantrum-free, amenable and easy going toddler. Other is a far better sleeper, has been since about 8 months, but is a demonic, tantrum-throwing, into everything bundle of mischief.

Btw, definitely not saying mother knows best. I don't think I had a maternal instinct in my body. I just muddled through and made it up as I went along Don't most people pick and choose methods and snippets of advice from all over?

I think mother knows best, not because she has any instict at all, but because she's the one who spends 24hr a day with her baby and if she doesn't know him/her (after a few months) no one does.

I read PL, can't say I 'followed' her advice (or nyone elses's)but I liked the way she talke about babies, and the fact that you should (up to a point) adapt to their needs, and nor the other way round.

What I never understood about GF is how she can recommend such a strict routine and expect it will work with everyone. I have many friends with children roughly the same age as dd and we've all compared our babies and consulted each othet at all stages and found that no two had the same needs/routines no matter what we did as mothers.

When I read PL I did not find authoritative at all and felt quite at ease trieng my own thing, while GF seemed very prescriptive (wake baby at such and such time, etc etc), and allow, me, can't really see it fitting in with real life, unless you have only one child and very little else to do!

Agree that most babies need routine, and I don't think PL suggests in her book not to follow one, but rather go with your baby's routine, not every baby will go to sleep 2 hours after feeding! (mine didn't not 5 minutes and not 3 hours later, when she was feeding again).

I agree with the article in the way it was written (of course you shouldn't restrict the time you cuddle your baby). One would tend to say that she referred to GF, but then some of you say GF (I have not read the whole book) did not say all the things PL was attacking, so maybe she wasn't attacking GF after all....and it wouldn't be fair to imply that, as she hasn't mentioned any names....

when read title of thread thought it was referring to some kind of parenting guru wrestling match.

I do agree with webmum on her "mother knows best" view. Mother is bound to know best after a while, if not through instinct (I don't know any "born to be mums" )through trial and error. Ds1 is now 17 months old and it seems that we've finally cracked it - at least for the time being. We've been through phases like a very happy easy going baby who slept through the night from week 5 up to 6 months, a terrible 6-10 months old waking up screaming every hour of the night and not settling unless we put her on our bed for a few minutes, few more good months followed by 4 of the worst months of my life, where she woke up totally in the middle of the night and took us 3 hours to make her go back to sleep.
Now she happily stays in her cot for her naps and sleep and plays on her own until she falls asleep. She still wakes up once or twice int he night screaming as if she is having nightmares, but now its a matter of just giving her some water and she is straight back to sleep. I'm not trying to say that we are wonderful parents and solved her sleeping problems, on the contrary, that ds has solved it herself. We just responded to what she needed each time - whether that was a cuddle or a bit of rocking- and she seems much happier. When we tried to implement GF, she would cry for ages, her heart rate would go through the roof (which I'm sure can't be very good for a tiny baby) and would fight us every time we tried to take her in her room.
On the other point about how GF routine restricts you social life, I couldn't agree more. I don't see why it is selfish wanting to go out between 9.30 and 10.15, not saying that you should deprive them from their sleep, but occasionaly you might have to disrupt their routine. Mothers are humang beings too with their needs, and frankly I don;t see how I could fit anything around GF's times for napping, feeding, napping, sleeping etc. Friens that follow GF say that it has freed their social life cause babies are asleep by 7pm. Personally I don't feel like getting into my pj's at 7 because ds is asleep and can't go out, plus if she slept at 7 dh would never get to see her.
Anyway, to cut a long story short, we considered following GF with ds1, but didn't work for us. We left ds to find her own patterns (which coincidentaly some of them agree with GF - she does need a nap about 2.5 hours after she woke up in the moring) which she did, and now she sleeps around 8.30pm to 9am with a 2 hour nap in the middle of the day.
I guess that my conclusin is that not one thing fits all, I've heard about both successes and disasters about following GF, and maybe someone should focus more on the point that our aim should be happy babies AND happy parents!!

PS. just to make it clear, yes my ds is happier with a routine, but it worked better shen she worked it out herself not us trying to impose one on her.

katierocket Sort of Gina Ford and Penelope Leach mud-wrestling or something ??? lol

I too had PL with ds1,now 10.If you read the book you will see that she does advocate routine and somewhere in the book is actually a set of clocks showing alternative sleeping patterns.What I did like about her ,in retrospect is that she encouraged you to trust your own judgement her basic message is that "you"know what is right for your baby and you.Ds had a routine from day 1 in fact I used to worry that I had made him too routinised because I am that sort of person;I like schedules and routines!!

When ds3 was born someone leant me GF,they thought I would like it because I was into routine,but what horrified me was that she seemed to be undermining peoples condfidence,I'm sure with the best intentions,all the examples in the book seem to be saying "look what a mess this silly mother has got herself into"also she obviously doesn't have sole charge of two other children of differing ages to accomodate,I just could not see how to fit in an hours schoolrun in the afternoon,or getting the middle one to nursery or cooking them meals at different times etc.So I abandoned her and went back to old method of logging sleep and feed times until I started to see a pattern and then encouraging it,basically a bit of GF and a bit of PL

I am sure GF does work for some but I have also met several people who think they are failures because of her and one terrifying example of a mother who missed the elder child's first nativity play because it was at the wrong time for the routine and the baby may never recover!

GF and PL - celebrity death match...

Wow and I though GF was the only Child Guru to get pasted on mumsnet..

Rehashing and bumped

Go Leach, bogg off Gina!

"heavens to Betsy"! wtf. i don't think i can respect anyone who says that.

big fan of PL and sears so no surprise i agree with her. its misleeding to say she does not advocate routine, she clearly does.
GF filled a vacuum with worried first time parents with no experience of children at all, and far too irrealistic expectations of babies.

i don't think parenting is instinctive, if so no one would kill or abuse their young. its important and helpful to have some understanding of child development (it might provide some insights into our own selves and our general attitudes). i dont think GF addresses that at all although it clearly solves a problem, no doubt it works, but its not the way i choose to parent my children

Team Penelope here :)

Penelope Leach's book is certainly flowery, but it helped me make sense of my baby much more than any of the others, particularly her crying.