Chinese teachers say British welfare makes our kids lazy

[TiredOfPeople]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3183310/Rude-bone-idle-cosseted-welfare-state-Chinese-teachers-damning-verdict-schoolchildren.html

I went to this school and it was awful to be honest, but having lived in the far east I understand where they're coming from. China doesn't have the buffer of a welfare system to fall back on so the kids know they HAVE to study to get a good job, because if they don't they simply won't earn the money to survive. Which is why they have some of the hardest working, and smartest, students in the world (along with South Korea and Japan). When you KNOW you have a buffer to fall back on, you simply don't apply yourself in the same way (I was on benefits). If you KNOW you will not get any help, as "cruel" as many say that is of a Government and as much as most disagree with, there's no doubting the fact that it gives you that fire underneath you. You fight to survive. I feel though many people here don't want to have to do that, seemingly according to the comments sections on the daily fail and here on MN, because they feel like they "shouldn't have to" fight to survive. They shouldn't have to go off to another city to earn money to send back for their kids, or shouldn't have to go to a whole other country to do the same. Because that's "not fair" or whatever. Life in China is TOUGH, but, they sure do study hard no?

You will find there is discipline in chinese schools backed up by discipline at home. You will find there is classroom management in UK schools and parents giving school teachers a hard time for disciplining their children. I dont think the welfare state has much to do with it. you only need one child to cause a raucous in class and it makes it much harder for the other children to concentrate, in a china no child would get away with stepping out of line.

Oh FFS, no, this isn't a serious point about the welfare system at all, this is just a round about way of saying "poor people are scum"

Sigh. No, sensitive sally, it was merely a point saying that personally, as I and family members have been and are on benefits, I think they have a point, rightly or wrongly, that without a net to fall back on it does make you work harder. I certainly don't think my aunties are scum, or my best friend, or my mum, or my past self :)

"Working hard and applying yourself to something you are interested in is fun."

Of course it is. But if you want to be a well-educated person then you also have to apply yourself to the bits you are not interested in. Surely this is obvious.

China's education system resembles a treadmill at times, with its sweatshop-like cramming, lack of fresh air/outdoor time/downtime/free play/social life, not to mention rampant cheating (a serious problem in Chinese institutions of all types).

On the other hand, if China's education system is a treadmill, then British classrooms sometimes seem to resemble a bloody bouncy castle. The obsession with the idea that children should be having FUN!!!! every waking second of their lives is a serious factor damaging our educational attainment level in this country. It's particularly depressing that quite a lot of teachers seem to have bought into the idea too, not just parents.

A good education system achieves a sensible balance between "work ethic" and "having a life outside school and time to sleep, think and dream."

Yes exactly! The pendulum is far too far to one side in China and far too far to the other here.

Both systems are broken. We need to find a way to swing the pendulum to the middle.

Possibly some private schools here do that. I don't know. I've never seen inside one.....

I think teachers have bought into the idea that education should be fun way more than parents. I think teachers instigated that philosophy in the first place.

Not sure if this is relevant or not I read somewhere recently that many children in China do not go to school. They are simply missed off statistics or given China's human rights record they just disappear. Personally I would go with the British school system at least it gives children a chance the problem is what they choose to do with it

Yup--kids in families who have migrated to the cities but have never been given "permission" to do so (and therefore have no official residency status) often do not attend school. It's quite a problem.

I suspect that lots fall through the net that we never hear about and are missed out of statistics.

My children go to this school, and it's far from awful. Saying that my kids did find the filming really disruptive, and were glad when the cameras left. Whilst they weren't involved in 'Chinese School' some of their friend's were, and I'm sure the 50 children involved were carefully selected. The children were encouraged to 'play up' for the cameras and one of the most disruptive pupils was a member of staff's child! Interested to see the results!

I wasn't saying that creativity stands alone SheGotAllDaMoves - just that it is important.

Of course they would be encouraged to play up- otherwise it doesn't make good TV! They wouldn't pick the children who would keep their heads down, not ask questions and just get on with it. They would pick the rebels who do test the boundaries- and the show offs who love to play to a camera. The ones that I read about admitted that they didn't behave like that for their normal teachers.

Had they been told that whatever was seen on camera would have severe consequences it would have been very different!

I think we as humans still have an awful lot of conclusions to reach (I don't think experience is lacking) as to best pedagogical practice. We need more longitudinal studies into what pedagogical practice results in the long-term retention of knowledge and skills. There is so much short term cramming in so many systems whose main advantage is ease of measurement.

I think that the experiment would have been more interesting had they done like with like and chosen a group of pupils who would have kept quiet and got in with it.
Unfortunately they want lively TV and they have picked those likely to give it to them. You can just hear them saying 'let's give them X and see how they get in with her! And good luck to them'! I bet they also didn't give them the support and back up of senior management with a clear behaviour policy.

It was a set up with a predictable outcome and tomorrow the Daily Mail can tell us how dreadful our UK schools are in comparison with China.
Meanwhile, as soon as they left, the pupils were back to normal, settled down and working- or that is what I would have expected.

When is this program on? I'm interested in seeing this.

I come from Hong Kong and have a lot of family there. Some extended family from the mainland too.

There is some truth about the welfare making kids lazy but in my opinion it's a tenuous one.

The simple fact is that the entire culture in Asian (not just Chinese) society is totally different. Education is seen as a gift, not a chore. In the mainland a free education is not your right. It's a privilege. If you are lucky enough that your parents can afford to send you then you can bet your sorry arse you will put effort in. Because your parents will be sacrificing and working their arses off to send you.

Your parents will NOT allow you to slack off. If you dick about at school, after the school have punished you, your parents will finish you off.

Basically you get it drilled into you that you have to get a good education for your own good. Yes in part so you can support your family when they are older but mainly so YOU can get a good job. Every Chinese parent wants their child to aspire to be a doctor, lawyer or accountant.

Of course even I will admit that competition has probably pushed the Asian system a bit too far. 12 hour days, super tutors. Kids do need time to be kids.

But then I also believe that the western (mainly UK/US) system has become a joke. There's no desire to succeed. Too many parents don't push their kids to succeed or take responsibility. If their kids aren't achieving then that's the school's fault. No it's not! It's YOUR fault. If every parent discipline their unruly kids better then teachers would spend less time dealing with the disruptive numpties and more time teaching. If more parents made sure their kids did their homework and revised for exams, results would be better.

The truth is the Chinese/Asian system is too strict, ours is too soft. I honestly believe there's a middle ground. It's not one or the other.

So who are the cleaners, the preschool workers, the street cleaners, bin men and dinner ladies, unskilled building site workers and other low/no skill job-takers in Hong Kong or Singapore? Is it only (?illegal) immigrants or people age 60+ with no qualifications who take those jobs?

brownfang in Hong Kong cleaners are from indonesia, Thailand and the Philippines. There is also a large population from China. A large proportion working in the service industry are migrants from the mainland. You can hear it from their accent.

Singapore also relies on a huge population of migrant workers.

Don't forget East Asians have a lot less kids. I think both countries have a birth rate of just over 1. Taiwan in fact has the honour of dipping under 1 a few years back.

As such the population isn't sustainable unless they import workers.

I mean fertility rate per woman. Google says it is 1.28 for Hong Kong and 1.29 for Singapore.

And both lower than Japan which is infamous for its ageing population. The difference is Japan doesn't allow much immigration.

So do local people in HongKong NEVER do menial jobs? What is the most menial job you would expect to find a native HKer doing? What about serving on street stalls?

I agree. I don't know what the solution is but I agree. There is not a huge amount of incentive in the UK when you can get welfare instead of a job

brownfan my guess would be retail and service industries like beauticians or hairdressers. They would also be low pay but less dirty than cleaning or care work. And you want people with a good level of spoken Cantonese. But I don't think they can fill all the retail roles just with locals. If you go to a restaurant, the ones who take your orders are Cantonese speakers. But the ones who carry the dishes out and clear the tables aren't. They don't just have one set of waiting staff like here.

Is it true that only about 30% of children in Chinese schools actually go on to high school? And compulsory education ends at 14y?

without a net to fall back on it does make you work harder.

What about the children with disabilities in China, who aren't seen as worthy of an education? Do they get a net to fall back on?

Some of the findings on the OECD results seem to go against what some of this:

www.oecd.org/edu/education-at-a-glance-2014-indicators-by-chapter.htm