Chinese teachers say British welfare makes our kids lazy

[TiredOfPeople]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3183310/Rude-bone-idle-cosseted-welfare-state-Chinese-teachers-damning-verdict-schoolchildren.html

I went to this school and it was awful to be honest, but having lived in the far east I understand where they're coming from. China doesn't have the buffer of a welfare system to fall back on so the kids know they HAVE to study to get a good job, because if they don't they simply won't earn the money to survive. Which is why they have some of the hardest working, and smartest, students in the world (along with South Korea and Japan). When you KNOW you have a buffer to fall back on, you simply don't apply yourself in the same way (I was on benefits). If you KNOW you will not get any help, as "cruel" as many say that is of a Government and as much as most disagree with, there's no doubting the fact that it gives you that fire underneath you. You fight to survive. I feel though many people here don't want to have to do that, seemingly according to the comments sections on the daily fail and here on MN, because they feel like they "shouldn't have to" fight to survive. They shouldn't have to go off to another city to earn money to send back for their kids, or shouldn't have to go to a whole other country to do the same. Because that's "not fair" or whatever. Life in China is TOUGH, but, they sure do study hard no?

This is so interesting, was having a similar discussion with MIL over the weekend. Dh was saying at ds' new school, they do 4 or 5 A levels (and get 70% As and Bs). MIL said 3 is a full time course of study. Hmm tell that to the kids in South Korea. I do think there is an institutionalised lack of work ethic in this country, a perception that the little darlings should never have to do anything they don't massively enjoy...

I live in China and children at school certainly work harder and have more homework than kids in the UK. However, I think has more to do with the one child policy than the lack of a welfare state. You are expected by your parents and 4 grandparents to work hard and not bring shame on the family.
Although children here work harder, they don't work smarter. My Chinese teacher picked up my son's science text book and asked how many pages he would need to memorise for homework. My response - none as it would a complete waste of time! Chinese schools are fond of rote learning and while this has its place (learning characters, time tables or irregular verbs) I prefer a system where children are encouraged to think and apply knowledge.

I was interested to read that the chinese only have 'one system' whereas in Britain our education system is flexible to the needs of the individual.

So if you have dyslexia in China, you wouldn't get extra support would you?

The Chinese system does not offer support for any SEN.
The family would need to sort something out.

If we want our children to do better at school we have to invest more in education - I mean more time. 39 weeks a year, 6.5 hours a day? Not enough. Discipline is also fundamental and those disrupting others' learning ought to be removed and educated according to their needs.

Bath learning cannot be a constant round of shits and giggles.

Shits and giggles != fun

Working hard and applying yourself to something you are interested in is fun.

Even my 7 year old gets that.

But it is a cop out to say that part of learning is being bored and that it is up to teenagers to force themselves through hours of boring work they see no point in.

That doesn't work for adults either. Making people spend a lot of their time doing things they find boring and giving them no sense of agency and control over what they are doing makes them stressed and demotivated.

Sticking the fire of fear of starvation under their arses to make them work harder isn't going to educate them properly, but it might make some of them better at rote learning and passing tests.

Disruption is a massive issue in the UK.

I visit lots of as part of outreach and when I ask pupils what they perceive as the main barriers to success, the answer almost always comes back as a chorus 'disruption from other pupils' or more likely 'fuckwits dicking about' .

Yet, there is huge resistance to admitting this is an issue. The HT here says there is no disruption usually in his school. I can't actually believe he believes that .

Also, there are some corners who think disruption is simply part and parcel of school and nothing can be done. Some even spin it as a positive .

I don't believe it.
There are underachieving kids with terrible attitudes in parts of China, I'll bet, even on city fringes.
It's fairly shameful in USA to be on welfare (benefits). Even unemployment benefits in the midst of a recession are very embarrassing.
Plenty of slackers & underachievers there, nonetheless.

I bet the Chinese authorities would be highly selective as to which schools they let foreigners film in!

I agree with rats. And the Chinese teachers we met were also shocked to realised that we were expected to teach twice as many lessons in a week than we do. It would be a huge benefit if we could focus more on fewer classes.

bath with all due respect that is nonsense.

There will always be times when you're not interested in the subject matter particularly but you have to power through it. A necessary evil. Teaching children otherwise is very detrimental to their learning.

I have two DC who have just done their GCSEs. Being able to dig deep, delay gratification and do what is required (multiple hours of boring revision sometimes in areas one doesn't find fascinating) are necessary.

Far too many DC have never built up this skill/trait. It only ever holds them back as adults.

If we want our children to do better at school we have to invest more in education - I mean more time. 39 weeks a year, 6.5 hours a day? Not enough.

Not "enough" for what?

I think that seems more than adequate time for schooling as part of a well-rounded, educational upbringing.

I think we need to look more closely at how school is structured - sitting at desks all day and following rigid curricula in order to pass exams doesn't seem like the optimum way to encourage independent, creative thinking.

"of course there is a safety net - it's called family. Even poor families help each other"

fish, I've got no family, what do I do for a safety net?

There will always be times when you're not interested in the subject matter particularly but you have to power through it. A necessary evil. Teaching children otherwise is very detrimental to their learning.

I think that very much depends on how you define "learning".

If you think "powering through" boring stuff is educational and passing exams is the point of learning, then OK.

Revising subjects you are interested in is not boring.

Being able to find what is interesting in a subject is a more useful and important skill that just "powering through" boring stuff to pass tests.

All the Chinese international students (university level, in Europe and US) I've known are no better and no worse - in terms of intelligence - then their British peers. Yes, Chinese school children are made to work hard through a system of fear and shame. But it seems to be no different than the glass ceiling/ middle class conversations that were going on a few days ago: if you've got the money, you'll get further, regardless if you not actually that clever. Just like in this country its all about filling your CV.

I've sat in French language classes where the Chinese internationals can't speak English, so can't communicate with the teacher to learn French - it was bonkers, but looks good on their CVs, even though they wouldn't pass the class.

A friend in a massive company based in China, who deals with hiring, says that all these kids with these beautiful CVs are not necessarily brilliant brain boxes, and some are next to useless...just like UK graduates.

juneau "My children's babysitter[...]cannot see that the state doesn't owe her a flat... Why is that? Because her parents have always had a council house. They've worked in low wage jobs, but the council has always housed them and she absorbed that as 'her right' from birth."

I'm sure that you pay your babysitter enough so that she can save for a deposit for a house and not be council house scum If she wasn't paid a low wage to do any important job (looking after your children) then she wouldn't need to be housed by the council. Shitty attitude with shitty logic.

I'm glad I live in a country that doesn't educate through fear and shame. But I do live in a country where low valued-low paid work is looked down on.

I would hate my children to go through the Chinese system and don't understand why it is held up as something we should emulate.

I think most of us would mehit but DS' school certainly attracts a fair few (wealthy) Chinese pupils .

That said, it's good to open up a discussion, though most have a knee jerk reaction against any critisism of our system even when valid.

I was more shocked by the Chinese teacher in the trailer who said 'no questions'. What a dull experience teaching must be for her. I love most of the questions I get asked in class. And I teach at a top school in this country with several students from Hong Kong in our sixth form (we're more famous there than here actually!).

Anecdotally, I have a friend who teaches healthcare in China. Their methods of teaching are totally different from ours and they produce totally different clinicians.

They are taught by rote, the way to do this is a, followed by B, then c. If x happens, they don't know what to do, because x shouldn't happen. In the UK, health professionals are taught very differently. If things go wrong, or don't work, there is not alternative - essentially you chalk it up and move on.

From what he said, this reflects the general approach to education, kids are taught to conform and perform to a set of prescribed behaviours, they are not taught to think, enquire or be creative. Sadly our current government seems to think this is good but as someone who works in HE, this really doesn't make for the best learners.

HK and Taiwan doesn't have a one child policy but the children work equally hard. The lack of a safety net might be the case. Or a very very competitive school system. Friends in HK sent their kids to learn from 2yo so they can pass their entrance exam to a good primary. I think if good state schools here use an entrance exam, then British middle class will work their kids just as hard. Same with an entrance exam to the secondary. But thus produces kids who are very unhappy. And very narrow focused on exams and school work. Like copabanana says. Do we really want that?

On the other hand, people don't have that entitlement culture to benefit. My ILs make me angry because they are exactly what is wrong with the benefit system. MIL actually believes it's good to have no savings because then the state pays for her. Seems to work for her as she's on pension credits and no private savings. Lives reasonably well. And she never really worked. In HK she would be working still as she's in her 60s. The state won't pay for someone to sit at home and do nothing. I'm not complaining because it means we don't have to pay for her. Which it would be the case if we are in HK.

There is a lot to criticise in our system, but emulating the Chinese is not the answer.

I would love to see in a Chinese school what happens to the children who simply can't keep up. Even with the school culture and supportive parents there will be those who just can't get it or have dyslexia or SNs of some sort. I suspect that the Chinese don't 'believe' in dyslexia. It would have done me untold damage if I couldn't be left handed.

We fail to capitalise on what we are good at in UK. Twice recently I have been to big show cases for art - in all forms- and the creativity is amazing and many of them are young. We are good at inventiveness and things where you have to think for yourself and question. This is what should be encouraged- not going down a very narrow route of the 'right' answers for the 'right' results for the 'right' job.

I used to work in an area of my industry where we were regularly bidding for projects in China & the Far East which were all led by European professionals. Why? Because they had an ability to look at things differently and adapt to solve problems, the leadership style was creative and flexible - this was because they came from a different educational background. When there were Chinese team leaders they were nearly always educated in UK universities.
The Chinese staffers were excellently educated but usually approached projects very differently from the Europeans. The continued demand for these European teams means that China must be lacking in its training.

Just re read my post and realised the middle section is confusing. The sentence about moving on if things go wrong is about the Chinese healthcare education system.

mehit indeed we are a creative nation and when we're allowed to follow our natural leanings, we really push the envelope.

However, creativity doesn't stand alone. It generally exits within the context of a firm understanding of what has gone before. It also exists within the frame of what art does, so requires a deep understanding of current thinking ie the right answers. It may challenge those answers, but it needs to know them in the first pace.

Most of us who would call ourselves artists and make a living from our creativity are grounded in traditional/formal education as well.