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Original poster

MN jury, who is in the wrong here? the prison officer or the muslim prisoner?

44 replies

thankyoupoppet · 14/11/2006 19:42

It is not in the news yet but it looks like it might get there.
An old school friend of dh's is a prison officer, dh bumped into him at the weekend and caught up on a bit of news.
This friend told dh that he might loose his job because of an incident at work, it went like this...

The friend had to do a routine search on a cell of a violent offender who is a muslim. The guard asked the prisoner if he had anything dangerous or illegal in his cell, or anything that the guard could hurt himself on. the prisoner answered no.
The guard then asked the prisoner if there was anything that he did not want him to touch in his room (All questions being protocol).
The prisoner then said he did not want his koran touched.
So the guard asked if the prisoner would hold it by the spine and fan the pages.
At this point the prisoner kicked off and the guard called for assistance as he felt threatened.
The two guards decided that the prisoner should not be in the cell during the search but that he could watch outside through the hatch. The prisoner agreed as the guards promised not to touch the koran.
So with the prisoner outside watching, the guard (dh's friend) went straight to the koran and tipped it up to reveal a hidden mobile phone and charger.

The guard got in serious trouble over this and his fate has not yet been decided.

Just wondered what opinions were on this?

(It might be worth adding that dh's friend is in no way a racist.)

OP posts:
southeastastra · 14/11/2006 19:47

er the prisoner surely if he's violent there shouldn't be anything that can't be searched!!

tissy · 14/11/2006 19:48

Well, if the phone and charger were not allowed, then prisoner is in the wrong for hiding them in a Koran. presumably the pages were hollowed out, to allow them to be hidden? If so, then he clearly didn't value his Koran that much.

Don't know if Islam prevents non-muslims toughing the Holy book.

tissy · 14/11/2006 19:49

touching

WhizzBangCaligula · 14/11/2006 19:49

The prison service is in the wrong for pandering to this sort of shit.

nearlythree · 14/11/2006 19:50

I know that Tony Blair has read the Koran and he's obviously not Muslim, and no-one has objected.

starshaker · 14/11/2006 19:51

if it had been a a knife hidden in the koran would they still think it was wrong to serch it or if some1 said i dont want you to look in my bag and then they later found a stash of drugs etc in it that wouldnt be wrong either. if this was the case then nothing would be found cos they would just say i dont want you touching this. if some1 said you could look anywhere apart form somewhere the place they didnt want me to go would be the first place i would iyswim

7up · 14/11/2006 19:52

the prisoner wether hes muslim or not, sounds like the guard was very respectful about the quaran

TinkersBollocks · 14/11/2006 19:53

Caligula

JoolsToo · 14/11/2006 19:54

racism has nothing to do with it.
It would be obvious at least to me that somewhere personal like a bible or koran would be the obvious place to hide any contraband - it ain't rocket science.

It seems as though protocols were followed although why there are any aside from being polite in prisons escapes me.

Why this guard is in trouble beggars belief.

TinkersBollocks · 14/11/2006 19:55

The koran bit is irrelevant. Imagine if he'd said "Don't look in my toilet bag/holdall/whatever". No guard would have agreed to that

morningpaper · 14/11/2006 19:57

WHY did he get into trouble? What was he supposed to have done wrong?

Since when are prisoners asked by officers "Is there anything we can't touch?"

"Erm yes don't go near my spade by that big tunnel in the corner please."

starshaker · 14/11/2006 19:57

im my opinion prisoners should have little or no privecy rights. they are in there cos they have broke the law not for a holiday

curiosity · 14/11/2006 19:58

Well said Caligula.

DizzyBint · 14/11/2006 19:59

what are the actual rules then re prison officers searching the koran? what was the prison officer supposed to have done in this circumstance? isn't this sort of thing covered?

seems odd to me.

couldn't they have just searched the whole cell, then confiscated the koran he had and given him a new one?

WhizzBangCaligula · 14/11/2006 19:59

"Is there anything in your room you don't want me to touch?"

"Yes keep away from that cake with the file in it. And don't open that cupboard, there's an uzi in there".

Eh? It sounds like prisoners are shown more consideration than the average teenager with a messy room.

WhizzBangCaligula · 14/11/2006 19:59

LOL MP crossed posts

hatwoman · 14/11/2006 20:00

it's not a case of one party being in the wrong and one not.

  • the prisoner was in breach of prison rules
  • the prison guard may or may not have been in breach of prison procedures
  • the prison guard's bosses and others at a more senior level with the prison service may have failed to put in place suitable procedures and/or ensure staff (such as your dh's friend) are trained in those procedures (in which case he may not be culpable - either because there were no adequate proceedures for him to follow, or because it was not his fault that he wasn't adequately trained)
Blu · 14/11/2006 20:01

I wonder if it will make the news.
let's see.

Is it Hercules on here who works in a prison? I'm surprised there is anything that can't be searched - perhaps his mistake was to promise not to, and then do it.

DizzyBint · 14/11/2006 20:01

yes i think that's what i was getting at hatwoman.

hatwoman · 14/11/2006 20:04

joolstoo: in answer to "although why there are any aside from being polite in prisons escapes me."
to avoid this kind of thing . Prisoners forfeit their right to liberty not their rights to be treated humanely. and unfortunately we cannot rely purely on good faith to ensure that

Original poster
thankyoupoppet · 14/11/2006 20:06

I'm so glad for these opinions. It is madness IMO. At least I can hope now that the bosses will see sense.

(He is leaving in Janurary anyway after 4 years of misery, the poor guy, to go off and be a snowboard instructor.)

OP posts:
hulababy · 14/11/2006 20:18

I don't know the rules of searching. However the prisoner's reaction to being asked to hold the qu'ran in such a way would be enough for me to see there was something suspicious going on! I suspect for the officers then there should be some protocol to follow in such circumstances - I guess this may have been missed out?

I personally think it is ridiculous. If a prisoner is acting suspicious (like the kicking off incident) then the officers should have the right to search his cell and property.

Not at work till Thursday so can't find out beforehand.

Original poster
thankyoupoppet · 14/11/2006 20:29

That must be it I guess hula, he probably needed to obtain special permission or something. I wondered if it was because he promised he wouldn't touch it but then did?

I also wondered how on earth he got it in there anyway but apparently a baby elephant can be smuggled into some prisons.

He has told us some really awful stories about where he works. Do you work in a prison hula? I hope they aren't all as bad as his.

(He once told us about a senior officer, at the prison he worked before, who went out to the pub every lunchtime, got really pissed and strolled back in when he felt like it. The management were aware of this apparently.)

OP posts:
Blu · 14/11/2006 20:31

Sorry - Hula, not hercules! Hercules is a teacher?

hulababy · 14/11/2006 20:31

Yes, there isn't much they don't get into prison! I did read that during a strip search at one prison the officers found mobile found hidden behind and under a man's genitals!!! Small phone or??????

I do work in a prison yes. I work in the education department, not for the prison service though. I have learnt a lot!!!