so did Nicola Sturgeon say she wanted Cameron as PM? [title edited by MNHQ]

[agentEgypt]

Not surprised at all. Now what were all the SNP supporters saying about them being different?

You really are full of hatred for Scotland aren't you? However, your facts are wrong. Read Carmichael's own apology letter.

Very few people "hate" Scotland, but maybe its just those outside countries that (through history) see which the wrong direction tricksy domestic/nationalist politicians are taking them.

I'm a little Englander but to a outsider who has never voted Lib Dem in my very long life, Carmichael appears to be a decent, able politician with THE BEST interests of Scotland at heart - and in desperation of what he saw before him, may have peddled a fairly obvious untruth.

I'd put to the board that the SNP/Sturgeon over reaction calling for his head, is just the on-going "hatred" vented on any person or entity that opposes their aim of an Independent Scotland, no matter what the cost.

“Big business warned of 'day of reckoning' if Scots vote Yes”

“Jim Sillars, Alex Salmond's former mentor, says the nationalists will have their revenge by nationalising BP, breaking up the banks and boycotting John Lewis”
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11091801/Big-business-warned-of-day-of-reckoning-if-Scots-vote-Yes.html

www.shetlandtimes.co.uk/2010/11/12/letter-from-westminster-49

Carmichael himself said it is never right to lie to smear an opponent. He must stand down.

Politicians should NOT invent facts just because they want us to agree to something.
Remember Tony Blair and the sexed up dossier, which conned us into agreeing to a terrible war, same principle. All the real good he did elsewhere has been buried in that shame.
Politicians should give the facts and try to persuade us with reasoned arguments.

Does keeping Scotland in the Union require lying to us all ? The Union is finished if we can't be honest with each other.
Let's make a proper case to our Scottish cousins to stay with us. If we can't convince them, then at least part as good friends and neighbours.

imo, Scotland would be worse off outside the UK. Similarly, the UK would be worse off outside the EU.
However, in both cases, we need to use honest arguments and treat those who have different views with respect, not insults or aggression.

they would have had massive leverage to get concessions

That only works if we assume the Tories would vote with the SNP and against a Labour government on the things the SNP wanted. In my view the SNP's room for manoeuvre would have been very limited. If they brought down a Labour minority government there would likely have been a backlash resulting in a Tory government with a sizeable majority. But it didn't happen so we'll never know.

In any event, this depends on whether you think the SNP's goal is to get as many concessions as possible from the government or to win independence for Scotland. If you want independence you don't want the UK government to take away the motive by leaning over backwards to accommodate Scotland.l

You seem to want to believe a memo written by someone who wasn't there

Not at all. I don't see how you get that from me saying "whether she said it or not". I have no idea whether or not she did say it. But if we accept that the SNP's priority is Scottish independence it follows that the best outcome for them was probably for David Cameron to remain as PM. A Labour government takes away one of the motives for independence - getting away from the Tories.

wingsoverscotland.com/a-second-chance/ Some of his constituents are taking him to Court.

BIgChocFrenzy .. when you compared the Blair/Campbell Iraq dossier on WMDs that swung a parliament vote and took us to war, with what the Ms Sturgeon said to the French Ambassador bearing a display of round gold wrapped chocolates - you lost your argument.

Scotland was never told it could retain the Pound or UK interest rates, yet through swing voters concerned could have obtained Independence and economic disaster on that lie, what then?

UKIP have all those MEPs on a very good salary as pretending they could bring the UK out of the EU.

The lies go on, this one is small French fries, pounced on by those with their own agendas to squash eloquent internal voices and want an unopposed one party dictatorship in Scotland.

If the UK electorate can have recourse to the words and actions of politicians, I am all for it if ALL politicians e.g. any politician insisting £1,530,000,000,000 of UK debt should be significantly added to, for 'investments' unspecified, as global bond interest rates/interest charges are rising.

www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Isitme It is only a question of degree. The principle is the same:
A politician is NOT entitled to lie to the public about facts to get his own way.
Just because you approve of the motives doesn't make it ok.

Regardless of my views on Scotland and the EU, regardless of what the SNP does, I won't accept "my" side lying about facts. Not in My Name.
It seems worse somehow, great big Westminster bullying little Holyrood than the other way would be.
Of course, the bungling idiot has given the SNP a huge propaganda victory too. Lies usually get found out.

I hope he gets kicked out on his arse and that they elect someone from another party, doesn't matter which.
Whatever happens, the LibDems are now the FibDems in my mind - and I've voted for them in the past.
I expect they'll be punished next May in the elections to the Scottish Parliament.

Carmichael has an interesting history as the Lib Dem Chief Whip during the Rennard and Hancock scandals, when he had an investigative role. Just imagine if he was a stranger to the truth then, as well.

A lot of good women resigned from the Party during those recent years and got seriously bloody maligned.

Why so angry that the Scots want to leave us ?
They have the right to self-determination and we can't force them to stay with us. The Nationalist cause seems about emotions, different values, & culture, with economics ignored really.
We've no chance of persuading them by smears and insults. We could try being nice for a change.

BigChocFrenzy .... who has said that they are angry the Scots wants to leave us?

I am very angry at the level of the misinformation Scotland receives from the SNP, and clearly on this thread, the hypocrisy as well.

If the SNP had said the following TRUTHS about the prospects of an Independent Scotland, which WILL of course affect the rest of us, whether they threaten again not to honour their share of the national debt if didn't get what they wanted, or not;

• We will need our own currency, which for a small country with a non diversified economy, will be quite volatile/weak.

• We as an economy reliant on oil will be exposed to global commodity prices on our spending e.g. NHS, and half the 2014 revenue (£2.5 bil) may be spent on providing our own independent defense.

• We will need our own bond market to fund the excessive levels of debt we want, which again for a small country will see interest rate volatility, and guaranteed to always be a lot higher than in the rest of the UK.

• We want to join the EU, but have no idea when that will be, or if we will be allowed in, if we do not meet to EU's financial criteria due to excessive debt piled up between independence and application.

• Once in the EU, we will substitute the interference of Westminster Conservatives overseeing our finances/borrowing/deficits, with the European Commission oversees a flatlining growth and double our current unemployment levels.

Then maybe, just maybe, even the most hardened nationalists, might have their head start to rule their hearts - and we wouldn't have the SNP threatening to bring their populist ideas of financial chaos theory, to Westminster.

Yesterday I heard Sturgeon's economic 'button moon'; where apparently when trying to obtain economic growth and Productivity, the SNP have magic buttons to press that improves those areas, the UK has struggled with the latter, the collective EU have failed to find the former in 5 years - without the benefit of the Barnett Formula giving Ms Sturgeon £1,600 more per head than England, Ms Sturgeon has on her economic CV qualifications in balancing economies.

"All we have to do...." poses questions, not the answers.

Good lord isitmebut, you're right! I will resign my SNP membership forthwith.

Iggi999.... is one right to think that you are taking the P one S? lol

My point is that no one should stand in Scotland's way IF independence was so advantageous to the people of Scotland and they were being told the truth on the consequences by the SNP - or the collective bottom wipes in Westminster prior to the vote had effectively managed to get the REAL argument against, across, without the tricksy SNP deflecting those risks.

Maybe there is a selfish side in so much that if we cannot have a British Bill of Rights yet because since 1998 the Human Rights Act has entwined itself into the constitutions of all countries within the UK, just imagine the time and effort on (the current) government in trying to unravel over 300-years of similar?

The 'once in a generation' or longer independence vote if therefore right, as much more groundwork needs to be done the ENSURE an independent Scotland is sustainable without a drop in living standards, so should be honoured without constant SNP threats and bickering when getting what they wanted.

The UK needs to feel like a family growing together again, rather than be subjected to politics of devision - as the 'us and them' didn't work in the last General Election and I predict will come back and bite Sturgeon on the arse if she and Salmond carries on.

Looking at Salmond yesterday after the Queen's speech in parliament, he just looked like a stroppy child determined not to have a good time and ready to play up at a moments notice. Prick.

Yes, sorry to joke but you were being a bit overbearing I thought!
Thing is, advantageous or not a lot of people in Scotland still just want to be independent. The arguments you make really won't win many over. It has become more of a principle than a policy.

"Overbearing", moi? lol

Of course they want to be independent, I don't blame them, I blame those whipping the possibility up on falsehoods that IF ADDRESSED, could make that possible in the not so distant future.

Meanwhile in Westminster, having received so much support on the dubious Sturgeon promise that only the SNP can fully represent the Scottish people, the SNP Westminster S.A.S. team have to play to the Scottish gallery.

And although they think/hope it will just wind up us little Englanders, I suspect that over time ‘the people’ of Scotland will realise they will be better off working with and represented by Conservatives, rather than opposing them as some sort of revenge for the Poll Tax, which I’d argue was fairer than Labour’s record/increases. Although I shan’t hold my breath.

And that will be on the back of Ms Sturgeon’s mind, as history shows that nationalist opportunities mainly arise in periods of great recessions/depression, and from now on that ridiculous “austerity” mantra when just cutting a honking great overspend, will have a diminishing effect.
www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2763047/From-Glasgow-Barcelona-historian-DOMINIC-SANDBROOK-fears-Europe-returning-crude-nationalism-caused-misery.html

Independent and potentially much poorer, that is really what they want; "we shall see" said the blind man.

Alex as a stroppy child? All the photos I saw showed him looking remarkably cheerful, or "smug" in DM speech!

I'll give you "smug", if you substitute the "remarkably cheerful" smile, for a potentially bad case of wind (or more like, hot air). lol

Funny enough it was through Cameron's speech that I noticed Mr Salmond fidget, look around, and generally look uninterested, so that leads me to conclude it was 'attitude', not a case of the stropps.

Funny enough I think the man is the consummate politician and one I'd prefer on my side, rather than against, so I am looking forward to his Westminster input.

In conclusion, I just hope for the sake of Scotland he keeps it professional - as we only recently (finally) lost one 'clunking fist' with Scottish 'tude, we don't need another.

But I don't want "smug", I'm not the DM!

I agree he's a brilliant politician, and think he'll have much more fun than he could have as FM. This Parliament could be interesting.

of course the snp wanted a tory government!!!!!!!!!!!! for all their talk , the holyrood government is described as kremlinlike by those who work there in
their centralist strictness.....no dissention is allowed...do folk really think they're all in such total agreement as all that??????????
also...they get a dead easy ride in political interviews

I find myself torn between and an outright PMSL/ROFL on that one. Not sure how many ! and/or ? I should add.

Maybe just stick with ?

You mean:

surely?!

^mmmmmm....doughnuts...D'oh

I've just seen the SNP's Tommy Sheppard being interviewed at the end of the Daily Politics show.

He comes across (first impressions, mind) as a thoroughly nice man of the people; professional, respectful with a good sense of humour, I shall follow his progress within his new Westminster career with interest.

Sorry, nothing to do with the thread, but I as I give the SNP so much stick, I just thought I'd mention it. Getting back in my box now.