"Nurseries 'pose risk to children'" - please, this isn't to be a ranty thread - I just wonder what the answer is

[hunkermunker]

Have you read this article?

There's something wrong with a society that doesn't make it easier for parents (I don't mean both, I mean one or t'other - both would be fab, but even I'm not that impractical!) to be at home with their children for at least the first year of their lives, isn't there?

And yes, I know the Government are bringing in 9m paid mat leave, but in reality, lots of firms will just pay the six weeks 90% of full pay and then £104 a week or whatever it is - and that's not nearly enough for lots of families.

Yes, I also know that people can move house/change jobs/downsize - and some people do all this and it works for them.

But equally, there are people for whom this is utterly impractical.

What's the answer?

But surely the point is, not everyone is lucky enough to have a family member able to take on childcare, whether you could pay them with money that would otherwise go to nursery, or not! And whether you'd want them to or not. There's no-one in my or DH's family that is able/willing to take on that role. The one remaining grandparent is too old and the aunties and uncles have their own children/lives thank you very much. If you have a good nursery then you have a place where your child can grow up secure in the knowledge that they will be loved and nurtured and taken good care of whoever they are with there. If you don't have that type of nursery then choose something else! The single attachment figure surely is the parent, as Loulou(? I think) said. And if you're just going to be on this thread to criticise any form of non-parental childcare, then please come up with some more logical argument.

well said wordsmith!!

Sorry pitchounette - mis-read what you wrote - i totally agree with you that more needs to be done in early years with parents to ensure secure attachments regardless of childcare, working etc. Many have been saying this for years and nothing changes.

Did you know that child poverty in this country in 1997 was the worst in the EU. Now we are average. On of the reasons that women go back to work is to avoid poverty which as far as I know can also have huge effects on children.

some information here on child poverty

Oh my goodness, this thread has made me feel very bad - what is the answer - to all win the lottery I think. Alot of you will be horrified to read I am a mum and a serving officer in the Army! DD has been in full time nursery since she was six months and will she be affected - you will have to wait out on that! Also both her parents could be deployed to Afghan for six months at the same time - why do we have a child and why do we stay in the army? because dd was a surprise and I couldnt bring myself to have an abortion; and the money is good and the pension - I have less then three years left and have gone into teaching so I have taken the risk that I wont deploy. Yes I do feel guilty sometimes but thats life. I try to do the best for her, she shows no sign of attachment problems - life is about choices and living by them. Here endeth my confession!

eveimatildasmum, I know lots of delightful, secure, loving and cherished children who were in full-time nursery when they were babies and who are now late primary/late teens. Don't feel too bad

Thanks Tamummy

I haven't read all the thread so will just respond directly to the article and some of the points I have read. I echo the point re inadequate being just that. My ds has been in nursery 2 days a week and has always had one specific key worker to attach to. He adores the girls that work there as well as all his friends and that type of environment does have its benefits over being at home one on one with no other child interaction (not that all sahm's do that). Secondly, why is it everyone seems hell bent on making women who make a choice to return to work feel guilty all the time?? I notice that noone is running to the government asking for more to be done about inadequate parents????!!!! I think if they spent more time devoting time to getting rid of child poverty and installing better systems for those kids unfortunate enough to be abandoned or mistreated by their own parents, then maybe we would have fewer problems with our younger generations. I wish everyone would make their mind up. They spend millions on trying to get women to go back to work telling them it will be beneficial for everyone, now they're spending more taxpayers money telling us exactly the opposite!!!! Why can't we all just make our own decisions as we see fit and be done with it??!!!

KathyDCL, I read the article, and agree.

[I am very slow... Kathy, I have just 'got' your Hallowe'en name... Doh! Sorry for irrelevant post!]

I 'm referring to jenny bristow's artilce
hi ellbell

CountTo10, it's not quite right to say that no-one is doing anything about inadequate parenting - the govt has been pouring plenty of public money into producing things like that guide for new fathers that suggests taking your kids to the park and other banalities. Spiked Online is always going on about it (eg here or \link {http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1599/\here}. However I'm not sure how useful it is - I quite agree with you that the govt seriously needs to sort out the systems that are in place for children in care.

I don't object to government funding research in either direction, though - I am happy as a taxpayer to pay for research that helps discover what form of childcare is best, even if it might feel like being attacked - after all, if nurseries really were bad for children then I would want to know. But then, it's not really the research that attacks parents, more the way other parents or the media sometimes interpret it.

DH was saying the other day that what really annoys him about government interference in nurseries (specifically, the progress frameworks or whatever they're called for children that involve them having to acquire key skills etc) is that it's not even like they're paying for the nursery - we are, so why can't we make our own decisions about what sort of care they give our children. (I suppose the reason nurseries have to follow those frameworks is to make them eligible for the government-funded free places, but this will only apply to our dd when she is older and then only for a minority of her time in the nursery.)

In a funny way we have too many choices these days. Years ago, you did what was expected socially or you did what you could afford. Just over 100 years ago, for a lot of people that meant children hanging around until they were old enough to work themselves frequently as young as 4 or 5.
Now, we can choose to live much better lifestyles and enjoy careers, but that means that we have to seek paid care for our children. Some of it is excellent, some good, alot adequate, some poor & some really poor.
As a few others here have argued, there is alot to be said for valuing the family unit, parenting, child-rearing & childcare. Given that literally anyone can do it, it is seen as very low value work.
I have no idea what the answer is. I think capitalist society is probably fundamentally flawed, as we all become economic units of production. Don't know what better working alternatives there are though. [vaguely despairing emoticon]

I want to ask my friends in Italy whether there is such a debate there. I'm not aware of such controversies there, and my friends seem to have had great experience (some of them have children who are now 7, 8 years old). As far as nurseries are concerned (1 to 3 years old), it operates a system of combined public and private nurseries. Public nurseries are funded by the council, single mothers or parents with lower incomes are usually privileged in the admission. catchment areas are also in place. rates are different depending on the salaries. highest rates are around 600 euros, if I remember well!!!. The level of care is very high, there is an average period of 2/3 weeks of induction, when children start, baby stays at nursery for an hour with mum, then alone and is encouraged to establish a special attatchment with a member of the staff. Obviously "public" nurseries aren't enough, therefore private ones are increasing. But rates aren't as high as here. And Italy being Italy, there are some areas where the system works very well, and other whee it doesn't, simply because councils don't have enough money to open or keep a good number of nurseries.
Sorry, I got carried away, and don't even want to describe italy as a family' paradise because unfortunately it's far from being so. This meant to say that I wouldn't mind at all if my family's taxes were to be used to fund nurseries which guarantee good, affectionate care, or to start with a proper research in the matter.
Again, I think nurseries can be a great, collective solution. Let's face it less and less of us can count on extended families. CM and nannies are great, but I for instance felt that I was more confortable trusting a group of people, rather than an individual.

Really interesting hearing about the situation in other countries, Franca - would love to know if there is a similar debate in Italy.

we are going to Italy soon, I 'll report back... sorry, hope it wasn't too boring...