Borat - offensive??

[niceglasses]

My dh is Irish and said if there were a sort of Irish Borat he'd be annoyed too. I really think if there was an English one I wouldn't be. What d'ya think of Borat?

(Sacha Baron Cohen must be loving all this free pub)

(But again, Marina, Harry Enfield et al are actually English, so it's really not the same as Borat ...)

NotQuiteCockney, you're thinking of Kalmykia. This is quite interesting reading - I hope Ilyumzhinov's election pledge of a mobile phone for every shepherd isn't too well publicised here in the Nativity Play season.

suejonez, ah, I'd rather he was making fun of the chess-mad guy, because a) he's a nutter and b) there's more to make fun of there.

The embassy response seems quite measured, I think it was a radio description of the situation, and "Borat's" response to it, that cracked me up ... against my better judgement, I should probably add. I certainly wouldn't go see the movie.

I don't understand why he has to pick an actual nation to parody, come to think of it. In Toronto, when I was growing up, there was at least one comedian picking on the "Slobovians", which, ok, that's clearly meant to be something Eastern European, but at least it's not a specific nation ...

i think he's hilarious We are all gradually losing our sense of humour under the pressure to be pc

thanks for that suejonz i suppose it must get to them, but people aren't stupid and realise it's just a character (well most people hehe).

Hmm, Hallgerda, it sounds like I'm conflating Tajikstan and Turkmenistan. The chess guy comes across as slightly mad, while the head of Turkmenistan is absolutely bonkers.

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are you friends with him megglevache?

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I quite often find him hilarious, (and sometimes toe-curlingly embarrassing) except that sometimes he crosses the line. It's helpful with his anti-semitism stuff to remember that he's actually Jewish...

The biggest shame is that he picked a real country. If it was a fictional place it'd be OK. I feel really sorry for the Kazakhs in that they can't defend themselves against this unwarranted onslaught - anything they say only makes the situation worse, yet they can't ignore it either.

I think that in these times where you cannot say anything without being accused of being a racist, this is a breath of fresh air! You almost feel guilty for laughing at the atrocious things he comes out with, but then you relax and find yourself crying with laughter.

It is because he is so OTT that anyone who takes him seriously must surely be out of their minds?

He is funny but I certainly couldn't watch a whole movie.
There was a funny piece in the travel section of the Times recently where two tour operators who work in Kasakhstan said he is not far off the mark with regards to attitudes towards homosexuals and women. The declined to be named.......

Well, we British do have to put up with being the slavering idiot or villain in just about every US film or TV sitcom, and I think we take it pretty well (esp our hammier old actors who make most of their money out of the perception that British people are especially evil). The people that Sacha Baron Cohen really satirises are the people who take 'Borat' seriously and thus show themselves up as racists etc. I think his fashion character - nominally a German journalist - is funnier though. But its the same idea - because he is foreign with a lose grasp of English he can fool people into saying what they really think, sometimes really shockingly. I can see the Kazakh point of view, but he's not REALLy Kazakh, he just uses a real, but very unfamiliar place as a way of convincing his victims that Borat is a real person.

Was shakespeare racist for writing 'The Merchant of Venice'?

Was Shakespeare sexist for writing 'The Taming of the Shrew'?

IMO - no...same with Borat - he's using a character to expose cross-sections of society which features westernised prejudices. He's a very clever man - and he's jewish BTW.

Please let's stop the world from this trend to be over politically correct. It really is making us into a victim state where anyone can accuse anyone of being victimised. Taking offence like this inhibits the real politics of the world.

whats the relevance of the fact that he's Jewish? (and yes I think with a name like Sacha Baron Cohen, most people would be aware he was Jewish)

Shakespeare wrote those plays at a time when it was Ok to be bigoted, antisemitic and misogynistic. I would be offended if a serious author wrote Taming of the Shrew today.

"Taking offence like this inhibits the real politics of the world." I'm sorry I have abslutely no idea what this means! Could you explain for me.

Sorry - but i don't wont to get into a big debate on shakespeares plays but i think the taming of the shrew is VERY misunderstood.

Shakespeare was a big old feminist, actually! Germaine Greer has written a book on his gender politics - very interesting too - forgotten title. I'll look it up now.

I think we're getting to a situation where debate is censored because of a fear of insulting someone. That's what i mean by the 'taking offence' stance. ie 'you've offended me and now i feel persecuted - you're making me a victim' - the blaming culture.

We should all be able to take a bit of ribbing and it's patronising to think we can't.

Politics is all about debate - we don't want that repressed. Stereotypes in comedy and drama, and when done well, can sometimes expose bigger issues.

I think that is what Borat does.

I think a lot of people don't twig that he's Jewish. The writer of that piece in the Sydney Herald doesn't seem to. DH, and others no doubt, thinks he's black, because he says he is.

Say a foreigner took the p*ss out of the British - we Brits might feel affronted. But if we realised that really he's actually British, it becomes OK, a bit of an 'in' joke.

Having said that, I do feel uncomfortable with his anti-semitism, but as someone else pointed out, this is his way of exposing people's prejudices. Anyone Jewish out there? What do you think?

beegee - we'll have to agree to disagree on the Borat issue. I think it's perfectly OK to get offended if you feel someone is being offensive and masking it in "comedy" is no excuse. I don't think he's trying to make any significant points, I think he's trying to get a cheap laugh. Some of his stuff I find funny (because there is no doubting that he is clever and has a knack of picking a phrase well), some of which I don't. I personally think that poking fun at a relatively unknown country is the equivalent of picking on the little kids at school.

And saying that everyone knows its not what Kazkahstan is really like and that its exaggerated just doesn't wash because the media have pretty much jumped on the bandwagon - poking fun in the press at any Kazakhs who have publically said they don't like the film, a double page article in The Mail going on about how backward Kazkahstan is. It all just smacks to me (as I've said before) as rather childish sneering at people who we don't consider to be as sophisticated as us.

I don't think I'm being policitally correct - you can't make people find things funny of they don't and I don't like this kind of humour.

On the slightly separate issue of is it OK to be anti-semitic if you are a jew. I'm not so I can't comment but I am very fat and if I called myself a fat old cow, it would be mild humour coming from my lips but I would find it offensive coming from someone else.

Noticing your own flaws and acknowledging them in a humerous way is very often quite endearing, pointing out others peoples faults generally less so.

As I said in my earliest post - I do have an axe to grind here to will remove myself from this thread having said my piece.

It's interesting that people feel that Jews can make jokes about Jews. Irish about the Irish etc....But that it becomes offensive if a joke is made about a relgious/racial group by someone outside of that group.

Mr Bubble is Jewish. My family are Scots, so you can imagine the 'being tight with money' jokes we get as a couple.

Mr Bubble and his brother were in M&S a while ago. My BIL picked up a shirt, or somesuch and commented on the reduced price being so low. He asked a nearby assistant if it was the correct price..to which the assistant replied..."Yes. And I'd get in quick if I were you. This lot are Jewish and they don't often give much away for nearly free."

Mr Bubble roared with laughter but his brother was totally offended and wanted to find a manager to make a complaint.

I thought it was funny when he told me but, as I've already said, I've got used to putting up with jokes about Scots for years (my maiden name was very Scottish.)

Sure suejon - i really hear and respect what you're saying.

I personally think he's very funny and a talented comedian! I watch him with great amusment.

HE IS VERY AMUSING!! Anyone who finds it insulting or just not funny should get a grip! He is Jewish himself so he is entitled to rip the piss out of Jews, no??

Really cant see why everyone is being so bloody PC all the time. Soon we wont be allowed comedy of any form at all.
The politically correct crew should chill out, and find something else to complain about.

Personally I think he is a comic genius, and reviews of the Borat movie from the USA have compared it to Airplane and other 'cult' comedies. The points made by those who feel that he's offended Kazakstan are assuming that his audience cannot differentiate between comedy and reality - surely its blindingly obvious that the joke is on him, and on the Westerners he dupes?!! But I'm not Kazakstani, so I guess its for them to judge.

frenchconnection I totally agree re: the pc stuff. And I just think that in this day and age more than ever we really NEED original comedy to keep us smiling! I'm really looking forward to laughing at the film.

Oooo... I have a total dilemma on this one. I find him absolutely ROFL funny and think aspects of his work are amazingly hard hitting. Think getting a room full of Southern Americans to join in singing "Throw the Jew down the well" is actually a stunning commentary on residual US anti semitism (or perhaps, slightly more generously, US inability, to be impolite enough to challenge someone saying something appalling to a catchy tune). Very thought provoking. But otoh, I totally see what suejonez et al are saying re the massively unfair impression he is giving of Kazakhstan. So my laughter is tinged with shame. But I really really reallyu really really want to see the film .