Tania Clarence, who killed her 3 disabled children, sentenced to hospital order

[Spero]

This is such a horrible and sad case.

I have just been reading this www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-30096820

and what struck me was what her solicitor said:

"Tania's depression was certainly not assisted by the constant pressure placed on the family by some individuals within the medical profession and social services who could not agree with Tania and Gary Clarence's stance of prioritising quality of life for their children and who were not readily willing to submit the children to operations and other interventions that they felt were not appropriate in the circumstance," he added.

He said Mr Clarence was assisting Kingston Borough Council in their serious case review of the case but wanted to make clear that allegations of neglect had been "wholly unfounded".

This seems to have uncomfortable echoes of the Aysha King case and professionals using the threat of care proceedings to get parents to comply with certain treatment regimes.

Interested to know what others think.

I hope it will promote more discussion about quality of life and a more holistic approach. So much energy seems to get directed at aggressive medical interventions without much thought to what comes next and trying to weigh the benefits and harms.

A friend of mine had to watch her dad die over a week after his feeding tube was removed. she said it was horrific and if she had done that to a dog she would rightly be prosecuted. I do wish we had better quality debate about issues around quality of life and having a 'good death'.

also maybe it will
help give parents of disabled/sick children the help and support they need.
there needs to be more help given.
so that we don't see/read more stories of parents killing their children.

(oh have to say. killing your child.....wrong)

There but for the grace of God..

Heartbreaking story.

this thread has really confused me
yes I am a parent of a YP with a severe disability.
but I really(and honestly) do not get the
"there by the grace" posts
why is ok to kill a sick child??
I really do not get it. how ever short there life it is, it
can be a good one.

I have a child with a disablity andche hasca social worker eho by the mature of her remit sees him as the focus of her work when in reality as a fsmily we should have a social worker who should help us function as a far as possible asca happy heathly unit.

If ever there was a case where the social worker should have been a loving friend and the doctors and health professionals 100% supportive this was it. This poor woman facing the painful death of her three babies. I hope she gets some help in hospital.

why is ok to kill a sick child??

You've missed the point I think. Of course it isn't OK. What is also not OK is that a person can be beaten so low and let down by the system that this seems an option and that those supporting the family didn't notice. She tried to end her own life too didn't she?

To have three dying children to look after day in and day out must be the most terrible, destroying thing.

Anyone with empathy can understand that. What don't you get?

"why is ok to kill a sick child??"

Its not unheard of for women to commit infanticide of a healthy baby if they have puerperal psychosis. The death of a child in any circumstances is awful. Infanticide has been treated differently to conventional murder for a very long time.

Noone is suggesting its OK to kill a sick child. Tania Clarence is detained under a hospital order because of diminished responsiblity. It is not a black and white case of three children being murderd. Tania was not in control of her actions at the time.

The whole thing is tragic and clearly something went very wrong. There was a breakdown in the system that was supposed to support the family. Tania will have to live with her actions for the rest of her life. I feel sorry for her and her entire family.

I don't think it IS okay to kill a sick child ...or a healthy one.

What I DO think is that mental illness makes people do things that they would not normally do.

So very sad.

I think that the court has pychiaratic reports from highly qualified people who have actually met the mother and know more about the circumstances of the killings. They know more than a bunch of mumsnettters who might think they are experts because they have access to google.

I feel that the judge has been fair. I hope that the family can rebuild their lives, including Tania. I hope that Kingston can learn some necessary lessons to avoid such a tragedy happening ever again.

I never said what she did was ok. I cannot imagine the stress she must have been under trying to care for those poor children, knowing that they would get worse and worse until they died.

I'm guessing she hit her breaking point and saw no other way out.

Those children and the family should have had more help and support, no doubt about it. If they had they may still have been here.

I'm guessing she hit her breaking point and saw no other way out

True, if we take into account that she attempted to kill herself also.

I work with women like Tania Clarence- that moment where they face the realisation of what has happened is heartbreaking. To live with the knowledge that you have killed your own children. So very sad.

she could have handed the children over to foster carers. she could have asked for emergency hospice care for days weeks or even months if she was under such pressure. she didn't need to kill them... one can empathise to a degree with her stress etc but never fully understand. she also had another child to think of.

I agree this was a mh issue, yes exacerbated by the situation.

when my son was attacked by his father because he was disabled and my now-ex couldn't cope - it was down to ex's MH crisis at the time. we were both under same stress, same level of support etc... why did he want to kill him when I did not? surely only because of his (ex's) MH.

At this time I had contact with someone I had met online in the US, her son was more severe than mine, a disorder that probably was going to lead to premature death. he was on access visit to his dad, her ex, when he killed both child and himself. the father also had/had some mh issues but she could never have predicted the outcome. he decided to do this at some point. again, same child, same support, same stress. one aprent wants to kill the child the other does not.

did TC tell her husband etc what she was planning? seems not. it was her decision alone and while we can understand that a point of desperation and a MH crisis might lead to this, it's still unconscionable. there is and always will be another option - walk away... hand child(ren) over to someone else.

having a disabled child is never going to be easy, and no it wont magically make services appear. it is always down to individuals to ask for and seek help. my son's overnight respite service has stopped due to some beauracracy, unless I actively and proactively seek new provision it wont happen. visiting a new provision this week.

what should case review conclude? spotting signs of depression? making sure child(ren) are taken off for breaks? more hospice and respite services? more care in the home? we don't know what would have made the difference for TC. and for those children..

It is easier to think over options if you are in a clear mental state. Dimminished responsiblity means that TC could not think logically.

There are arguements for enthansia in circumstances like this.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/babies-dont-need-to-die-like-this-the-argument-for-child-euthanasia-8815627.html

I wonder how TC would be view in Belgium?

The posters saying she should have handed the children over to "someone else" have missed the vital point that the authorities wanted to do things to the children that the parents disagreed with, affecting the children's quality of life.

So it's not just whether TC could cope with the care burden, it's that she and her husband were working extremely hard to protect their children AGAINST the actions of the "someone else".

If she had, rightly or wrongly, come to believe that SS were going to take the children and forcibly subject them, for years, to procedures that TC felt gave them more miserable lives than necessary, it's not hard to see how that could, in her mind, tip over into "killing them to save them".

I don't know if that's what happened. But can see how it's possible.

Spero, yes, so much energy does seem to be directed at aggressive medical treatments but it depends on the doctor and his or her personal attitudes towards the type of patient - it's equally wrong if medical staff assume they can deny treatment to someone who has a disability. Both attitudes are bad and should be challenged. I know of a case, for example, where an A&E consultant sent away a man with a learning disability who was having a heart attack with the charming words 'get this man out of my department'.

Seems to be very hard for some SS and NHS staff to understand they must treat people with respect and understanding, including families and advocates.

Agree, PausingFlatly. How was TC supposed to hand her children over to other careers, when that almost certainly would mean they underwent invasive medical procedures which TC was vehemently opposed to?

I outlined above how we had all services withdrawn when we chose an intervention for our disabled dd which is frowned upon by our PCT/LEA. At means we have no social worker, no paediatrician, no services for dd1 at all. No respite. Nothing.

I could fight for them. But if I do, then I am inviting these people back into my life to judge and comment and think they know better than we do (out of interest, dd1 has come further than anyone (except us, her parents) ever thought she would since we started this intervention). And I cannot cope with that. I don't want every aspect of my life picked over. We are just a family, doing the best we can to give a good start to all our children. I don't need, or want, to justify the choices we have made, in the best interests of our children. And so I am left on my knees with it all, with no help or advice or respite. But that is better than constantly having my life discussed as a theoretical thing. Better than being accused of not wanting to help my child. Better than being left to feel as though I am oh so wrong for wanting to do something slightly different (which was clearly, in my dd's case, in her best interests, but not generally advocated - du to costs - as the best course of action for people in our situation)

Our choice was very clearly 'our way or no help at all'. We chose no help, and it has taken its toll on all of us as a family. I have no idea what will happen to dd once I am not here to fight for her, to put her needs first and fight against a system which would have left her without any skills at all, and barely living. Once she is at the mercy of a one-size fits all system, where individual needs and wants are not taken I to consideration.

I can easily see how, with the addition of even the slightest hint,of depression and unclear thoughts, a situation like TC's can arise. It really doesn't take too much imagination from where I am sitting.

Edam - agree. I have been there, done that with dd (has learning difficulties) being sent away from the OOH doctors, because they didn't know what to do with her. She was in severe pain, but could not answer their questions (and I was not allowed to explain the answers she was giving).

So we were sent home, because that way it would be someone else's problem.

Mainly ours (and dd1's).

It's absolutely disgusting, tbh.

I think a significant point here is that when someone (child or adult) has a life-limiting disease, then it is wrong to force them to extend the length of their life by undergoing painful, invasive treatment that destroys any quality of life they may have. It should always be the person's decision (or their parent's choice if they are a child) whether or not such treatment is accepted.
And to bully a family going through such trauma with aggressive threats, unannounced visits, withdrawing the social worker they trusted - that is absolutely indefensible.

Sorry, my phrasing suggested the children's lives must be miserable. If they weren't in too much discomfort then of course their lives needn't be miserable - while they were at home and surrounded by their family and things, and feeling loved.

Hospital, invasive procedures, being with strangers away from home and parents... these things create misery.

Obviously we ask children to put up with these things when there's a worthwhile end in sight. But sometimes there isn't.

PandasRock.

Pandasrock - I'm so sorry you were treated like that.