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AIBU to be gobsmacked that 2/3 of parents want to lose their right to parent in the way they think best?

64 replies

Tzibeleh · 15/11/2014 18:06

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/11232799/Make-it-a-crime-to-leave-children-under-12-home-alone-say-parents.html

Who are these parents? Clearly not MNers! Do they truly believe that their 11yo should go off to secondary on public transport, but not ever be left alone at home? Are they such pathetic parents that they need Nanny State to decide everything for them? Thank goodness no politicians are currently thinking of making this law, but just wait until someone thinks it might be a vote-grabber.

OP posts:
TheHoneyBadger · 04/12/2014 10:46

out of curiosity if you believe under 12's should not be allowed to be left alone would you be ok with paying people to stay at home until their children are 12?

i am the single mother of a 7 year old (currently earning a living and not on benefits bar tax credits like the vast majority of people) would you be cool with your tax (or maybe it's your husband's tax given you've 'never' left your children) being spent on me being paid benefits and my rent and council being paid until my child was 12?

apotatoprintinapeartree · 04/12/2014 10:57

TheHoney

Do you read the posts at all.
I said "some parents" not all parents who leave under 12's on their own, kid themselves.
It's not an opinion but a fact I have experienced.

I'm sorry, but don't understand your last paragraph.
Childcare is available for children wraparound until the end of y6.
Then, until they are 12 you could use a childminder or after school activities organised in school.

TheHoneyBadger · 04/12/2014 11:13

really - have you tried to access after school care places? i couldn't even get one after school slot for my son aged 6 as they didn't have any spare places for even ONE afternoon and one child.

childminders were equally hard to access most having their full capacity with babies, preschoolers and those who'd started reception after being clients before that.

a childminder that takes 11 year olds is an interesting idea - have you met many? childminding from 1month old to 12 years old is quite a wide age range to go for and i don't know any childminders who'd want to take 11 year olds personally but maybe they're more common around your way.

as for 'after school activities' hmm, sadly they don't really exist at the school my son was at - there was a 30min gynmastics class by a private provider on fridays with room for 20 ks1 children in the straight after school slot, key stage 2 session started at 4 so parents had to pick up, take home and bring back their children to attend that one.

so you want single parents to work and they should just use childcare that doesn't exist.

TheHoneyBadger · 04/12/2014 11:15

gosh imagine the poor childminders paperwork for ofsted when they have a 12 year age range to plan and provide for - a lot of work for £3ph per child

ouryve · 04/12/2014 11:17

What about parents in rural areas, potato? Our village primary only offers wraparound childcare up to year 2. There's a breakfast club for older kids, but no after school club.

Secondary age kids rely on school buses to get to school. There is no regular public transport that does that particular journey, to either of the feeder secondaries. This means that staying on at school isn't an option for kids whose parents can't collect them. School isn't necessarily in the same direction as work, so not guaranteed to be on the way home for the parent.

Then, for a single parent on minimum wage, there's the whole issue of finding the money to pay for a child minder, if they're obliged to use one. That's if they can find one on the 11 year old's bus route. Of course, that childminder might not be home at 3pm, when the 11yo arrives from their school bus because they're picking up primary school age kids....

You are seriously lacking in imagination if you think that everything is so simple.

tunaandcheesesandwich · 04/12/2014 13:16

If an 11 year old is walking home on their own or getting buses and trains home from school, how can they then have to have a childminder once they are safe at home?!

TheHoneyBadger · 04/12/2014 13:31

madness no?

my son was horrified by having to walk home with and hang out with 'babies' at 6 when we used a CM for a while. by 11 i can only imagine the inappropriacy of being stuck in a 2 up 2 down house with 2 year olds and younger. what would a childminder do with them and where would they put them given the space is taken up by little ones playing with models and making cookies?

i love the naivety that wraparound care exists at the level of need for small children let alone 11yos. it just doesn't for very many people.

the primary school my son was at till i went self employed and home educating had something like 25 places for wraparound care and held back a certain percentage of those places each year for newcomers to the school (so they could say after school care existed despite the fact people in kids higher up in the school couldn't get a place unless they grabbed a full time one and never gave it up when their children started the school).

i suspect we're being lectured by a woman who hasn't had to juggle work and children, has no experience of the realities of childcare provision in most areas and whose assumptions and values are built on the back of being financially supported in her values by another adult taking the full load of financial provision. it's not just single parents that this isn't an option for but most 2 adult families also nowadays with the high cost of living.

DazzleU · 05/12/2014 12:40

I don't think that children under 12 should be left alone tbh.

You don't know my DC.

Why should your view of a theoretical child be more informed or relevant to my years of experience of my child.

Unless my DS grows more sensible in next few years - I doubt he'd be sensible at 12 ( I've no idea how we'll handle that situation when we get there) - my DD1 - would be fine at 11. I'm not kidding myself - her teachers describe her as exceptionally sensible at 9.

12 is an arbitrary age as any other taking no account of the DC in question.

I don't get how a DC traveling on public transport or walking home alone is suddenly in more danger than their own homes.

What are people supposed to do - not work - insist their 11 year old secondary school children hang out in public places - parks, coffee shops public libraries still they can get home - use none existent childcare?

edamsavestheday · 05/12/2014 13:00

There's no childcare for 11 year olds where I live either. Once they've finished primary, that's it - unless you have a spare room and the money for an au pair, or ditto plus younger children for a nanny.

I'm not thrilled about 11 yo ds being on his own after school until we get back from work but there's no alternative. Well, there hasn't been, very luckily dh has got a new job nearer to home and where he can work from home two days a week. But that still leaves the other three.

The school library is open until 5 so ds goes there and does his homework, but there's still a gap until dh gets home about 6.30.

TheHoneyBadger · 05/12/2014 13:40

it's reality for very many people. it's all very well for kept women to smugly declare we should be at home but it tends to be the same smug types who disagree with serious public investment in childcare or financial support for the working poor so???? whatever. smug away lol

apotatoprintinapeartree · 06/12/2014 23:04

HoneyBadger

Just came back to say fair cop, but don't see where I was lecturing moreover voicing my opinion, public forum and all.

We have childcare provision in many schools and a local charity provides services for all dc up to 25 inc sn, all at various times, it is £5 per session I believe.

Obviously, children who are aged 11 in primary mainly attend the school wraparound care.

So whilst I don't use the services myself, I do know what exists here.

I don't believe we should all be at home, what nonsense,
my family are the working poor, in fact I work quite a lot and most often don't receive any financial gain, so as I take state financial support am hardly going to be against it am I?

I know several childminders who have aged 11 y6 children to care for.

Greengrow · 07/12/2014 12:34

We need fewer laws on these kinds of things, not more.
Our Dear Leader Cameron after all left his child alone at a pub as we all know.

HicDraconis · 09/12/2014 03:51

It's illegal to leave children alone here under the age of 14 without having made sufficient provision for their safety (not the UK before anyone jumps on me).

The actual wording on the CYFS website (Child Youth and Family Services) is:
In New Zealand, it is against the law to leave children under 14 without making reasonable provision for their care and supervision. What is considered 'reasonable' takes into account the circumstances in which children are left alone and the length of time they are alone. Parents are required to assess all the circumstances and make sure that any child left alone, or in the care of another child or young person is safe and not in danger.
Up to the age of about 14, most children are not sufficiently mature to be left without adult supervision on a regular basis, or for more than a short time. While it can be tempting for parents to leave children alone for an hour or two after school, at this age there are still many risks. Older children may seem to be reasonably happy and able to entertain themselves, but they may not be able to cope with an emergency. Unsupervised children are at risk from household or cooking accidents, fire, poisoning, unmonitored internet and phone access and playing with weapons. They are also more likely to get into trouble or put themselves at risk of harm without adult supervision and guidance. If an older child is left alone for a short time, parents or caregivers need to make sure the child knows where they are and who they can contact if there is a problem. Parents also need to check that their older child feels confident left alone and that they know what to do if they need assistance.

There's a world of difference between a predictable bus journey with a recognised end (home -> school where you will be checked in and a parent phoned if you have not arrived, or vice versa where non arrival at home after sufficient time to walk from the bus stop should also raise an alarm) and being left for several hours a day or overnight with no supervision.

My children are currently at an age where I don't have to worry about this (7 and 8 and therefore too young to be left alone in any case). As they get older I'll be giving them more and more "supervised freedom" but I won't leave them at home on their own before they are 14 if I can help it. Never say never, an emergency may arise where I have to weigh that sort of problem up. I'd probably take them to work and sit them in the tea room with a kindle than leave them at home alone though. And yes, I do have to juggle work and childcare.

They are already learning how to cook, clean, wash, budget etc - I don't need to leave them alone to teach them basic life skills. Once they get to 14 I'll be extending what they do such that by 16-18, they'll be fine to live independently. I'm just not forcing them to grow up sooner than they have to. They get some supervised freedoms (e.g. playing in the local park out of my sight while I walk the dogs, but with knowing exactly what to do, where is and isn't appropriate to go etc).

This doesn't make me a "smug kept woman", I work 60+h a week.

In reality I can't see a UK law being much different to the one we have in NZ and it doesn't seem to cause as much outrage as people are showing on this thread. It's not a judgment on anyone's ability to parent, just a common sense statement that children under a certain age should have appropriate provision made for their care and safety.

TheHoneyBadger · 09/12/2014 15:28

are lone parents obliged to work from the time their children are 5 in NZ? does the benefits system allow for not working when you have children under 14?

personally ive never had a job where i could have taken a child with me.

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