Is Jack Straw a racist for requesting that women remove their veils?

[magicfarawaytree]

just watching the news. didnt personally think he had done anything terrible in asking.

er Blu, did you slip off the knotted sheet rope?

oops
But I have regained a tight grip again...byeeee!

I'm a deist myself. believe in god but not organised religion.

On the subject of Sharia law, I was once told by a muslim client for whom I was preparing a will that the reason he was not leaving anything to his daughters was because it was correct under Sharia law.
When I told him that, as his daughters were still children and therefore had a valid claim under the Inheritance (provistion for family and dependants) Act, he told me that he and his family did not recognise English law, only Sharia. This guy was born and bred in England. It's this sort of arrogance that winds me up about Muslims.

and also an element of outraged feminism mumblelikeazombiechum?

indidentally, I'd say the very fact that he was preparing a will shows that he had to recognise UK law.

incidentally..oops

Fair point. I think a lot of the anti-Islamic feeling in this country is based upon a feeling that women are downtrodden in Islam.

Islamic law requires each muslim to observe the laws of the country in which you live and the fact of the majority of muslims have been living here for decades without any problems is evident that this is not a issue for them. Please dont let the minority reflect on the rest of us!! Muslims show again & again that they are integrated but this just does not make for interesting news.

On those of u who have children that are afraid of women in veils, my nephew who is 7 recently shocked me when he said ( when we were shopping in Brixton) that he did not like " those boys" pointing to some black youths because he thought they would take his gameboy. I have since spent time with him trying to explain away the fear as it is not rational & I no more want him to grow up being scared of black boys then I would want any child to grow up being scared of veiled women.

This thread has been a real eye opener for me, i had no idea that so many of u held such strong views on veiled women when most of u have never ever even been in contact with one

At DS's nursery I have asked them this morning if I can bring some things in to make a display to celebarte Eid, which is our christmas celebrated at the end of ramadan. The only way forward it seems is to educate people about the true Islam to deal with the misconceptions people hold.

Fuzzywuzzy...well done for your input, agree with everything you say!!!

Last year I was at college with quite a few muslim woman who wore various forms of the veil. We were tlking about visiting mosques with a group of children (child care course). They couldn't understand why I objected to (a) having to go through the back door and (b) not being able to visit whilst menstruating as I was unclean. Had quite a heated debate on this with them insisting I was unclean . Nice way to bring up your daughters! I was raised as Catholic and found that hard to understand but Islam - can't get it myself.

mb as SANA said first and foremost we abide by the laws of the land. There are conditions which must be met before a man takes a second wife and if he did in this country it would obviously not be recognised by law. In these circumstances all we can do is follow Sharia where possible - eg we have a mortgage and pay interest, we have jobs where we cannot necessarily pray five times a day etc.

I think one think that makes people so angry about Muslims is that we take it all very seriously. We really do believe that Allah has shown us how to live. I can no more prove His existence than non-believers can disprove it. It is blind faith. Alot of people in this secular society just cannot grasp that we submit and acknowledge that we do not have perfect knowledge.

Can't see any way round it, but if a society claims to believe in free speech and live and let live I do not see how it can object to other peoples' way of doing things as long as that way is not harming anyone.

So you would say that the man who said he only recognised Sharia Law was wrong in his belief that only sharia law was to be respected?

Beacuse if I am honest it is that sort of attitude (his, not yours ) that worries me the most.

of course, if he lives in a place where the majority are not Muslim and where the country has its own democratically established laws.

Shariah law does not say that daughters do not get anything.

It's really maddening when I watch people with a little knowledge apply it, they always get it very wrong.
Anyone can bequeath whatever they like to their offspring, the shariah will only kick in if there is no will in place.

Actually it is imperative in Islam (the prophet (pbuh) said so as it happens), that a person who has anything to bequeath does write a will.
Which reminds me we've got to ask the chosen people if they will be the guardian of our girls should anything happen.....

Saadia- as long as that way isn't harming anyone is a point I agree with.(and many others I'm sure)
But the fact is that there is a minority element who perhaps hide behind Islam, who do want to harm people and claim to do so in support of an Islamic brotherhood. (Though muslims are killing fellow muslims in Iraq at the moment so I'm not sure how that gets justified.)
And, they may be a minority but their methods make them hard to ignore.
(not stuff you haven't had rammed down your throat a thousand times by now I'm sure..)

part of the issue in Iraq is that there are two branches of Islam...Sunni and Shia. they disagree with each other and some people use this as an excuse for sectarian violence....rather like the protestant/Catholic things in Ireland.

FW - I think that was the point, if a will wasn't written would the intestacy laws conflict with the Shariah?

So this man had an incorrect knowledge of Shariah you say?

Hi MB - yes I think the Sunni/Shia sectarianism complicates the Islamic brotherhood thing a bit doesn't it, though I understand that there are even more schisms than that within Islam, as you say rather like the various branches of the catholic faith. (catholic in the sense of the nicene creed IYSWIM)

My husbands best friend is Shia (we're sunni). My husband would trust him with his life and the other way round.
Our two (extended)families are incredibly close. I think from a personal perspective, the media like to make a big mountain out of the difference between the two.

And dare I say, in Iraq, the occupying forces are using the 'divide and rule ' method.

possibly FW, or another perspective might be if there were no sectarian violence there would be no reason for our troops to be there and they could come home.
keeping two sides apart was the justification for sending troops to Ireland too I recall. I read a very interesting book called 'pig in the middle' about the army's role there.

The Army was originally sent in to protect the Catholics. Funny how quickly that changed...

fuzzy, I see your point. Rather like I have a Catholic friend who is married to a protestant.

The shia/sunni divide has predated the issue in Iraq though, hasn't it?

sorrel, atheism is the oppsosite of deism - it is the starting point for those belief systems that reject belief in God. Deism is the starting point of my belief system, Christianity being my way of understanding that. In answer to what I thing I consider part of my belief system, it depends on whether things form a part of someone elses'. So with Reiki, which originates from Shinto, my answer would be that I believe in it as a healing from God, albeit coming originaaly from a different path to mine. With dragons, as I am not aware of any dragon-worshipping religions, it does not form a part of my belief.

Presuambly if you put 'none' you are not an atheist? I cannot imagine having no beliefs at all.

phantomCAM, not sure if I should take your question seriously or not, but my honest answer is that you have to find the right way for you. Assuming you are asking if I believe you can combine elements of paganism with Christianity, I think that is pretty much what most New Agers do. Many Christians these days have earth blessings and other ceremonies that are also a feature of paganism.

Sorry, getting miles off topic, will stop now!

Coming back to the topic in hand, is it true that the Muslim Council of Britain actually represent the views of very few British Muslims, and are generally less tolerant than most?