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I despair at Israel sometimes

933 replies

AndHarry · 01/07/2014 12:07

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

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babbas · 06/07/2014 14:20

There are reported to be approx 8000 palestinian children under the age of 10 in prison in Israel. Since 2000 approx 15000 children have been killed by Israel. Palestinian actions have killed 20 children since 2000. stats like these may also be contributing to the palestinians anger and frustration.

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TucsonGirl · 06/07/2014 14:34

Where are those stats from?

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donnie · 06/07/2014 15:17

"probably because the Israelis invaded and took their land".

And there you have it.

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donnie · 06/07/2014 15:22

And to keep on taking it, building new 'settlements'....yet somehow claiming a desire for peace. I will steal your land and your farms but I want peace. If you retaliate that means you are the aggressor. Not the thieves.

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AndHarry · 06/07/2014 15:32

There was also a demonstration in Tel Aviv yesterday calling for an end to the aggression. Not all Israelis want to see this endless cycle of hatred and fear. Not all Palestinians want to see it either. There are extremists on both sides, unfortunately they seem to be disproportionately represented in government.

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Bambambini · 06/07/2014 15:49

And they always shout the loudest.

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TucsonGirl · 06/07/2014 16:15

Again, if Israel retreated back to it's 1967 borders, does anyone think Hamas would be prepared to leave it at that? What exactly is Hamas if there is no conflict in the region?

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dollius · 06/07/2014 16:17

Can anyone imagine this "natural expansion", as Israel describes it, being so tolerated anywhere else on this globe??

Can you imagine we, in the UK, sailing across the channel and randomly annexing parts of Northern France and calling it "natural expansion"?

It is theft, pure and simple. The Palestinians have become a race in exile, unwelcome in other Arab states lest those states be considered to be collaborating with Israel's desire for a Palestine devoid of Palestinians.

A PP asked why Egypt won't accept the inhabitants of Gaza into its land. It is because if they did, other Arab states would accuse it of being party to the "Zionist conspiracy" to empty Palestine of Arabs.

It is the same reason Jordan will never allow women married to non-Jordanians to pass on their citizenship to their children as this would encourage more Palestinians to desert Palestine (crazy, but this is the argument used for not changing the law).

What people fail so spectacularly to understand is that the dynamic between the various Arab groups in relation to Palestine is hugely complex and makes the whole conflict so much harder to resolve.

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Patrickstarisabadbellend · 06/07/2014 16:22

Both sides are as bad as one another.

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Shakshuka · 06/07/2014 16:22

Donnie - I'm still waiting for evidence of starvation among Palestinians which you've promised. Actually you'll find that Israel was very careful and calculating that there wouldn't be starvation in gaza. There's plenty you can criticize Israel for but to make things up for propaganda always backfires.

Israelis (there wasnt such a thing prior to 1948 anyway) didn't invade and steal their land. No land was stolen prior to 1948 yet the Arabs just couldn't live with Jews in Israel, no compromise. Yes, Arabs who fled in 1947/48 did lose their property. That was a historical injustice (although not the worst by the standards of the time) and there should certainly be compensation as part of a peace deal (maybe the Arab countries will also compensate the million Jewish refugees from arab countie who also Lost their property and land?). But why are Palestinians still refugees nearly 70 years later? Why did the Arabs turn down the UN partition plan in 1947? The whole nakba could have been avoided. Why did they announce the three nos of Khartoum in 1967?

Israel isnt preventing freedom of movement within gaza, it doesn't control gaza. It doesn't want the gazans in Israel, understandably, since a very small minority kept on blowing themselves up. Gaza has a border with Egypt. Why cant they go to Egypt? Same langauage, same religion, dont blow egyptians up. Israel evacuated every last settlement in gaza. It got rockets in return, talk about playing into the hands of the israeli right wing! now the settlers say 'you think evacuating the settlements will lead to peace, look at gaza you naive fools' and the left wing are then left going 'but, but, but' and not very convincing.

The settlements shouldn't be there and they're certainly a major obstacle but they didn't exist until the early 1970s so let's not pretend its the only issue. And Israel has offered the Palestinians peace deals which included evacuating the majority of the settlements (land wise) and land exchanges for the big blocs close to the border. But the Palestinians chose to start the second intifada. It's so sad.

And while I opposed the wall initially, the simple fact is that it has worked. Since Palestinians have been stopped entering Israel easily, the number of terrorist attacks and Israeli civilians killed has dropped dramatically. In 2002/3/4 it was terrifying in Israel, almost every day there was an attack. Of course it's not a permanent solution and it should have been built on Israeli land but I do feel conflicted about it - despicable it may be but it did the job it was meant to do. It was a direct result of constant Palestinian terror attacks against civilians.

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cheekygeeky · 06/07/2014 16:34

Am shocked that there is support for the wall on here. Has history taught us nothing? It did the job? The job of strengthening the apartheid and continuing persecution.

You ask why can't the palestinians go to Egypt? I suspect it's the same reason the Welsh can't be forced to go live in Ireland or the shots to Wales.

This isn't all about Jews vs Arabs. It is about the destruction of human rights. Palestinian human rights in the main.

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AndHarry · 06/07/2014 18:50

The main difficulty for me is that the Israeli government perpetrates human rights abuses within Gaza, affecting civilians far more than enemy combatants. In my mind this cannot be justified and simply perpetuates the problem.

Israel should stop abusing and denying Palestinians their human rights. Hamas extremists (and not all Hamas members are militants...) should stop violence against Israelis. Are we agreed on those two points?

The sad thing is that I think that we can write off peace in this generation. Someone thought that killing four young people, three of them children, one of them burned alive, was the right thing to do. I don't think you can reason with such people. Do you think it would be possible for talks aimed at preparing the next generation for peace would have more success? What could prepare young Israelis and Palestinians to have the same mindset as Quivering who sees a Palestinian as a human and an equal rather than an 'other' to be feared and hated?

My young Israeli relatives attend schools with both Palestinian and Israeli children learning side by side. My older relatives work with, shop and socialise with Palestinians and Israelis. It is possible for this to happen.

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Shakshuka · 06/07/2014 22:03

cheeky
I'm sorry that you're shocked but you clearly don't understand the main objective of the wall and where it passes. A couple of facts:

  1. The wall was built as a direct result of the continuous terror attacks in israel from the start of the 2nd intifada. Its objective was to stop terror attacks in israel, nothing to do with apartheid and, yes, it achieved its objective. If the palestinians wouldnt have comitted endless terror attacks against israeli citizens in israel as part of the 2nd intifada there would be no wall. I'm sure if it were YOU and your family and friends who were exposed to this terror, you might feel differently about it.


  1. Every country is entitled to build a border. The us doesn't want Mexicans crossing the border illegally (to work, not to blow themselves up) and built a wall - is that apartheid? Unless you think that israel and the Palestinian territories should be one country? That's the reason the settlers were opposed to the wall so that's a pretty right wing view. I wish the wall didn't have to exist and it definitely shouldn't have gone on to Palestinian land but am I relieved that there are far far fewer terror attacks now? Yes, of course I am. I envy you your innocence that this idea of not wanting to be blown up myself or have my friends and family blown up can shock you.


Also, no one is talking of deporting Palestinians from gaza, certainly not me. I'm only asking why Egypt can't open its border with gaza. It's obvious why israel cannot but why not Egypt? It's like blaming portugal because France doesn't want to open its border to Spain. Let the Palestinians move about freely in Egypt, in a fellow Arab country. It's all about blaming Israel when clearly Egypt doesn't want the gazans very much either.
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Shakshuka · 06/07/2014 22:19

andharry

What's even more despairing is that on the recording of the call to the police where the teens are shot, the kidnappers start singing with joy and blessing one another. And the Arab boy was burnt to death, calculated cruelty which makes the mind boggle.

This hatred and celebration of death and murder is nationalistic - it wasn't some sick pedophiles - and it's on both sides.

A famous Israeli Arab screenwriter who is on sabbatical in Chicago has just said he might not be coming back because co-existence is becoming even more fragile. I totally understand him.

I don't think the conflict will end soon and the two state solution is an increasing pipe dream. It took hundreds of years for the situation in Ireland to be resolved and the situation in French Algeria. And, for Israel at least, I don't think there is any real urgency as the situation is manageable - until the next crisis!

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TucsonGirl · 06/07/2014 23:03

I see Israel has arrested people in connection with the killing of the Palestinian boy. Now, did Hamas make any arrests, or even investigate who killed the three Israeli students?

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cheekygeeky · 06/07/2014 23:35

Shak please don't assume I don't understand the objective of wall. I understand it perfectly well thank you. It's despicable and there is no justification for it on humanitarian terms.

Nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing you say will change my opinion about the illegal wall built on yet more appropriated palestinian land. I'm not going to get into a debate with you but do think you need to show a little more humanity.

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Shakshuka · 06/07/2014 23:47

cheeky

And I'd say that you need to show a lot more humanity...and, sadly, you need to educate yourself a bit more as well.

I don't want to get into a debate with you either because you clealry don't know what you're talking about, just throwing around a few clever cliches you picked up.

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bakingnovice · 06/07/2014 23:54

Cheeky is absolutely right.

Stop with the passive aggressive blows shak. You're doing yourself no favours. Grow up.

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Bambambini · 07/07/2014 00:09

I think unless we live there and our children are facing these dangers daily (on either side) - then TBH, most of our words are meaningless, detached from the situation and possibly hypocritical.

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TucsonGirl · 07/07/2014 00:48

Cheeky hasn't got a clue. She would supposedly prefer Israelis to die rather than have a wall. The same as the "Iron Dome" I guess, that also protects Israelis against illegal attacks from Palestine. Which is the worst thing, an illegal war that protects people, or illegal attacks that kill innocent people for no reason whatsoever? The people who need to "grow up" are the people that think Palestinan=good, Israel=evil, despite all evidence to the contrary.

As you can probably tell, this is a subject that means a lot to me and it grinds my gears when people who know nothing of the situation just regurgitate the usual liberal BS they are fed by the media.

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Shakshuka · 07/07/2014 01:56

Not passive aggressive, i said exactly what i think.

And cheeky was simply factually incorrect.

Rather than personal insults, it would have been more constructive to have actually addressed the points i made but i generally find people with only a shallow understanding of the situation prefer cliches and insults- reality tends to be a.bit more nuanced.

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Quivering · 07/07/2014 07:27

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

unrealhousewife · 07/07/2014 07:44

Thing is if you take the wall down the Palestinians and extremists will still aim to kill and attack the Israelis.

I don't quite understand what the guardian reading pacifists propose in order to fix this, that The Jews just leave? I think they need to be a little more honest with themselves about their endless whining about Israel and come up with some solutions.

The Palestinians don't want to live in peaceful harmony with their Jewish neighbours, they want them gone, dead or alive. This is not about territory or land, it is about deep hatred and I think the US is doing the right thing by standing by the Jewish people.

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unrealhousewife · 07/07/2014 07:56

Oh, and I am a Guardian reading pacifist, born and bred! I just don't get where it all switched in the 70s, it seems to be when the socialists got their agendas confused and equated the US support of Israel as some kind of capitalist takeover for the purpose of cheap oil.

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babbas · 07/07/2014 08:17

Shak - so you are saying anyone opposed to the illegal wall is factually incorrect?

As far as I remember it was internationally universally condemned.

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