I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

[BomChickaMeowMeow]

In my view the current Israeli regime are just state terrorists.

[Shakshuka]

Don't bother quivering. You'll probably get some regurgitation from the bds website.

The Israeli 'regime' is not entitled to self defense and Hamas are a pure as the driven snow.

Twas always thus.

[Shakshuka]

andharry

Arafat wasn't constrained at all. He was an egomaniac who didn't want to go down in history as the one who gave up the right of return.

Abbas is weak, that's true but Hamas in gaza isnt, partly because they killed or imprisoned all the fatah opposition (they really are a delightful bunch). Hamas could easily stop firing rockets into Israel using civilian buildings to do so but they don't want to, it would go against all that they stand for (death and destruction).

I'm sure you want to believe your relative's version of events. However, I have first hand and personal experience of the Israeli civil service and I can assure you that at no point in the application process are you asked about your political opinions or participation in demonstrations. I personally know many Israeli civil servants who run the full spectrum of political opinion from anti Zionist Arab Israelis through to right wing settlers, many of whom have openly taken part in many demonstrations. It has never been an issue (other than at the most senior levels but that is true in most other countries as well). I also know many people who, when they don't get a job, look for reasons other than not being the most suitable person for the job. If your relative was indeed denied a job as he or she stated then please advise this person that they can submit a grievance with the Israeli civil service commission as such an actionis against the civil service code of conduct.

[AndHarry]

Madeleine Albright said repeatedly that Arafat needed help controlling the Palestinian extremists. There was an awful lot more he could and should have done to prepare his people for the concessions required for peace but he was not all-powerful.

Yitzhak Rabin was an extraordinary leader. If Netanyahu shared his belief that acts of anti-Israel terrorism should not he allowed to sidetrack negotiations then I truly think that a lasting peace could be found.

King Hussein said to Arafat and Netanyahu, "After agreement, both sides will look back and not even recall these issues." The ground between each side's final negotiating space is so excruciatingly small. The Wye River Memo had them so close but they didn't stick to it and here we are nearly 20 years later back at the same old sticking points. To me, King Hussein was right - there has been too much bloodshed, too much suffering, too much anger and fear and hate to be arguing endlessly over what in future years will be considered trivialities at the expense of lasting peace.

[Shakshuka]

Arafat never wanted peace. He hoodwinked a lot of us, myself included. On his death, Albright said that it may now be an opportunity for peace as he was an obstacle. Not much of a eulogy I'd say.

Arafat was interested in personal power and his own wealth - and Oslo allowed him to accumulate both. He was a billionaire when he died. Who knew that a career as a terrorist and a public servant (I use the term loosely) was so lucrative....He was also very concerned in how he'd go down in the history books and he didn't want to be the one who compromised on the Palestinian fantasy.

And for now, Netanyahu will not be the one to bring about peace. He's too beholden to his power base - settlers and right wing Likud. He's also a populist who always has his eye on the opinion polls. I think he's awful.

But, yes, I do blame Arafat for fucking up the best deal the Palestinians were ever going to get and starting the intifada which completely derailed everything. Israel could have responded differently but the collapse of the left wing camp was a direct result of the second intifada. The right said 'told you so, they don't want peace, now look what we've done' and the left didn't have much of an answer.

The Palestinian cause is just but the end doesn't justify any means. We were on a path to peace and, like you said, so close but Arafat decided the path of violence was preferable and dragged the Palestinian people along with him.

[AndHarry]

I bet if you asked a Palestinian they'd condemn Ariel Sharon. The Mitchell report found fault on both sides for the second Intifada.

This is really what I'm trying to say. Five years of violence were sparked by a provocation, a protest and an over-reaction. Over 4000 dead. Can this be avoided now?

[Shakshuka]

I think it would depend which Palestinian you ask! I know a lot of Palestinians who were disgusted by Arafat and disgusted by the second intifada.

Here's the opinion of one Palestinian
www.meforum.org/645/arafats-swiss-bank-account

What Sharon did was provocation and unnecessary but the second intifada was no spontaneous eruption of anger. It was not the first intifada (which WAS fully justified and was a genuine grassroots uprising).

The second intifada had been planned for for ages, weapons had been stockpiled, attacks had been strategized. Sharon going to the Temple Mount was the excuse Arafat had been waiting for. And it turned out to be the biggest calamity for the Palestinian people, much more than for the Israelis.

[Shakshuka]

And can it be avoided now? I'm not optimistic. Not with the Israeli leadership and Palestinian society as it is right now. Both Israelis and Palestinians seem to be becoming more entrenched in their views and moving away from supporting peace.

The two state solution is becoming a dead duck, it's becoming non-viable - thanks to both Israel AND the Palestinians. I can't see a one state solution working right now either. So what's left??? From the Israeli perspective, continuation of the status quo isn't so terrible. The wall stopped most of the terrorist attacks within Israel, the rockets from Gaza are manageable, more or less, the Israeli economy is strong and growing. So nothing much is going to happen unless a strong US president comes in and really pushes things. That's not going to happen under Obama right now.

[AndHarry]

How do you feel about it? Do you think there is much ordinary people can do to work towards a long-term peace?

[Bambambini]

I know what you are saying and I despair at both parties but I wonder how measured the Palestinians would be against the Israelis if they were the ones in the position of power with the high tech weaponry.

I don't believe that most Israelis would want to annihilate every Palestinian but Tbh, I'm not sure the Palestinians would grant the same courtesy to Israelis.

[Yruapita]

If it was proposed that palestinians swap sides with israelis, but then the palestinians would have to endure the rocket attacks from israelis but have a bomb shelter to go to, and they would have to show the same level of 'restraint' as shown by israeli government and show the same level of food rationing as shown by the israeli government and build settlements whenever they please but continue paying lip service to the world. I wonder if they would accept. My guess is a big fat yes!

As for showing courtesy, you think israel is courteous towards palestinians? Go live the life of a palestinian in Gaza and then come back and tell me about the courtesy of israel.

The murders of those 3 israeli boys was disgusting. If Hamas people are behind it, then those persons shoukd be brought to account. However, there is no proof yet that Hamas is behind it. Israel always goes for destroying palestinian infrastructure and palestinians are collateral damage.400 palestinians have been arrested and 5 are dead, including a boy. Is this Israeli courtesy? Is this Israel showing restraint? Is this Israel determined not to annihilate or collectively punish Palestinians?

Now a Palestinian boy has been abducted and burned to death - he was alive when they set him on fire. There are cries of an uprising. More palestinians will pay the price with their blood.

[Shakshuka]

There's no doubt that the Palestinians have suffered much more than the Israelis from the conflict, the Israelis won and they lost (and not just because of israel - other arab countries have treated them atrociously, look at the apartheid in lebanon). It wasn't always obvious that Israel would win, in 1947/8 and in 1967 Israel was weak and things could have ended very differently.

Bambanbini makes a valid point by asking what would have happened if the Palestinians would have won? Hamas makes no secret that it wishes to destroy Israel. If the Arabs would have won in 1948, it wouldn't have ended in a refugee crises but in genocide, they also made no secret of what they intended to do.

There is an element of collective punishment in the Israeli response which I condemn, but there is certainly no wish or attempt to annihilate the Palestinians.

All Israelis I know, from across the political spectrum, condemn the murder of the Palestinian boy. The families of the murdered Israeli teens have fully condemned it. Benjamin Netanyahu condemned it - unlike Hamas, the elected representatives of many palestinians, who supported the killing of the Israeli teens.

By the way, there is plenty of evidence that Hamas were involved in the kidnap and murder. It probably wasn't ordered from the leadership who probably wish the unity government to work but if you encourage your members to be murderous bastards, you probably shouldn't be surprised if they're murderous bastards. If Hamas are destroyed, the world will be a better place, I not lose sleep over Hamas being 'punished' for something they claim they didn't do.

[Bambambini]

I don't know - it's difficult. I have no time for the religious settlers. I see them as extremists who would see the Palestinians displaced and possibly wiped out. I struggle with what happened to these boys and the fact that these settlers choose to be a huge part of the problem. They don't want peace and compromise.

[FliptheThread]

I enjoy your posts always Shakshuka. I find them so considered.

[babbas]

The settlers are extremists. Israel have as always reacted totally disproportionately. The apartheid in Palestine is disgusting and unless you have been there and seen it for yourself you cannot imagine the oppression, frustration and sense of loss.

And before the pro Israel lobby start attacking need, my dh is Jewish. He was born in Israel and left vowing not to return after he witnessed and grew up with the dehumanised ion and brutality against innocent Palestinian men women and children. He is one of many many Jews in the UK who are totally against the actions of Israel.

[TucsonGirl]

What would you consider a "proportionate" reaction, babbas?

[Bambambini]

I feel totally frustrated about the wrongs both sides commit. But in my heart of hearts I think out of the two the Israelis would be more rational overall and want a peace that allows both sides to co exist. I'm not sure the Palestinians feel the same though Incan understand why. The Palestinians (understandably) seem to be so eaten up with hate - I don't know if their is a peaceful way out for them.

There have been more peaceful times and some hope then the Israelis vote in Bibi and the Palestinians vote in Hamas and I stopped following the situation closely.

[babbas]

Bombing whole areas and family homes because Israel 'believe' hams leaders may be hiding there is totally disproportionate. Not allowing free movement within Gaza and palestine us disproportionate, building the despicable wall was disproportionate, locking children away for throwing stones in their prisons is disproportionate, stealing land and illegal settlements are disproportionate..... I could go on forever.

[TucsonGirl]

What about the atrocities committed against Israel by Palestine? What about the Hamas leaders that have vowed to wipe Israel off the face of the earth? What would you have them do, given that their whole race came very close to being wiped out less than 70 years ago? If Isreal retreated back to it's 1967 borders, knocked down the wall, and left Palestine alone to do as they please, do you seriously believe that the Palestinians would be happy? Because I certainly don't. If Jews could have prevented the holocaust by pre-emptively striking against Third Reich Germany, would you have been against that, theoretically?

[babbas]

Israel cannot keep justifying their actions on the back of the Holocaust. I am against the death of all innocent civilians on both sides. 3 israeli teens were killed this week. Israel retaliated by killing 6 Palestinians (numbers going up by the hour ) sorry but I will not sympathise with Israel. For a race that was nearly wiped out they should not try and do the same to Palestinians.

[TucsonGirl]

If you are against the deaths of innocent civilians on all sides why do you seem to laying all the blame at Israels door?

If Israel wanted to wipe out Palestine they could have done so decades ago. Give Palestine the same weapons that Israel has and what do you think they'd do with them?

[cheekygeeky]

There was a protest outside the israeli embassy in London yesterday. There were a lot of Jewish people and rabbis there too. It was hardly covered by the mainstream media but was refreshing to see those on both sides of the conflict standing side by side.

[babbas]

Tucson let me ask you a question now. Why do you think the Palestinians feel so angry?

[TucsonGirl]

Probably because the Israelis invaded and took their land.