I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

[TheHoneyBadger]

glad of your post baking. people have been resorting to accusing me of antisemetism on this thread despite the fact i've endlessly been saying, and linking to sites showing, how very many jews are not only against israels regime and methods but actively campaigning against it.

to claim this is about judaism rather than imperialism is an insult to jews all over the world in my opinion.

[bakingnovice]

This is not about religion. It's about one oppressive regime getting away with genocide.

As for bambam saying that people don't care, has she missed the hundreds of demonstrations held all over the world? The outrage on twitter and Facebook? The outrage here?

As humans we probably can't do much to stop this massacre but as individuals we should at least be able to condemn and vow to support those being obliterated whilst being caged in a refugee camp. As a pp said up thread - not on our watch. I was sent this article by a friend and it highlights the plight of those in Gaza right now. It is though provoking and highly insightful.

m.thenation.com/article/180656-report-gaza-when-my-son-screams watch.

[KareninsGirl]

So what do you suggest Israel should do after a year of rocket fire from Hamas? Asking them to stop firing hasn't worked. I hate the fact that innocent people are being killed but what to do? What would the uk do if the uk were being bombarded ?

[bakingnovice]

Well the UK won't be caging in a group of people into a refugee camp any time soon will it. Israel should do what has been suggested already - allow palestinians the right to return to the land, freedom and equality. It must stop killing and subordinating palestinians. I have followed the thread and this question of yours has already been answered. Palestinians must have the right to return and be set free from their prison. Why is that so hard for you to accept Karen?

[bakingnovice]

What should Israel do after a year of rocket fire you ask? Can I ask you what should palestinians do after 66 years of occupation and being forced into a ghetto? Can you answer this without your rhetoric of 'I hate innocent people being killed.... Israel is defending itself...etc.

There cannot be any rhetoric when you have the best equipped army in the world fighting the least well equipped army.

[Numanoid]

So what do you suggest Israel should do after a year of rocket fire from Hamas?

Give the Palestinians their land back? Stop keeping them in refugee camps and making them go through numerous checkpoints to go anywhere outside said refugee camps?

Hamas firing rockets isn't right, but what else can they do? Their lands have been occupied, and Israel has a fully-fledged army and air force. How anyone can support their actions is beyond belief.

[TheHoneyBadger]

another stating the obvious (again): they must cease to keep palestinians in a prison camp, cease denying them human rights, cease illegally stealing their land, let people return to their land and make reparations for decades of war crimes.

that's what israel should do. unless israel do this there will be no end (unless they manage to kill every last palestinian which seems to be the strategy so far).

[halfdrunkcoffee]

Just as many Israelis disagree with the current government's actions, is it likely that many Palestinians do not support Hamas? I am sure there are many different views and opinions on both sides. Neither side is a homogenous blob.

I also think we start to go down a slippery slope if we condone rocket firing as legitimate resistance even if there are historical precedents. We can certainly try to understand and address the anger, injustices and appalling treatment that have caused it but surely deliberately targeting civilians by either side can never be right? Both sides just seem to respond to violence with more violence, albeit with Just as many Israelis disagree with the current government's actions, is it likely that many Palestinians do not support Hamas? I am sure there are many different views and opinions on both sides.

I also think we start to go down a slippery slope if we condone rocket firing as legitimate resistance even if there are historical precedents. We can certainly try to understand and address the anger, injustices and appalling treatment that have caused it but surely deliberately targeting civilians by either side can never be right? Both sides just seem to respond to violence with more violence, albeit with very different scales of force at their disposal.very different scales of force at their disposal. The violence also alienates people who might otherwise be more sympathetic to their cause.

[halfdrunkcoffee]

Sorry for the repetition in my above post. Phone playing up.

[TheHoneyBadger]

i think the palestinians have been waiting decades for the world to be 'sympathetic to their cause'. i should imagine they've given up the notion of that ever happening.

[Numanoid]

We can certainly try to understand and address the anger, injustices and appalling treatment that have caused it but surely deliberately targeting civilians by either side can never be right?

We've had years to do so. As TheHoneyBadger says, they've probably given up by now.

The Israeli PM should be tried for war crimes in the international courts. Of course, that's never going to happen. :/

[MaliceInWonderland78]

I think the Israeli government have shown remarkable restraint.

The cold facts are that Israel are a nuclear power. Certainly they're more capable from a military point of view. It's a modern miricle that they haven't turned much of Gaza's sand to glass.

If Hamas stop firing rockets (broadly and mercifully without success) into Israel; then Israel will stop showing them how it's done.

[KareninsGirl]

It's not quite as simple as that though. Israel has tried to make offers of land with the Palestinians before, including half of Jerusalem and the Palestinians have refused.

I'm sorry but if you think this is not having any impact on anti semitism around the globe you are very wrong. As it was, anti semitism was on the rise in Europe before Protective Edge began. In fact, I started a thread about it weeks ago.

[wordsmithsforever]

South Africa had nuclear weapons too. There was talk of dropping a bomb on Soweto at one point. Thank God they didn't. Let's hope Israel is never even tempted to go there.

[TheHoneyBadger]

no i agree, israel is indeed creating anti semitism. it is misguided because israel does NOT represent judaism but yes of course people will conflate the two when israel deliberately does so to garner sympathy.

it is bloody unfortunate that the zionists are STILL willing to sell true jewish people down the river to maintain their imperialist regime.

i never said that anti semitism wasn't a thing or that this action didn't impact on it, i said that i wasn't an anti semitic and that the accusations of me being so were misguided. unless you think all of the jewish organisations, protests and groups around the world against israel are also anti semitic?

[TheHoneyBadger]

to be honest though i don't think a apartheid like regime based on a form of racial purity and dehumanisation of an ethnic group has any business talking about discrimination and trying to garner sympathy when they are the biggest culprits in the developed world.

[wordsmithsforever]

The trouble is, TheHoneyBadger, it won't be Israeli leaders who will suffer the effects of any increased anti-Semitism associated with this latest terrible episode, it will ordinary Jewish communities around the world.

And the same goes for Hamas leaders, they won't suffer half as much as the ordinary people in Gaza will suffer.

That's why my interest in the leadership is minimal - I don't really care who is elected and who isn't - people are suffering at a grassroots level and it needs a grassroots solution.

That Jewish voices video is spot on. And I do think social media like mumsnet and facebook can help. If we'd had twitter and facebook in the days of apartheid in South Africa, I bet the struggle would have been far shorter. Half of the time we didn't even know if people had been detained unless someone put a poster up in the university halls and then often right wing students would take it down in a few minutes.

[IonaMumsnet]

Afternoon, all. Just a quickie to remind you all of our Talk Guidelines.
www.mumsnet.com/info/netiquette
We know this is a really emotive topic, but please try to avoid personal attacks on other posters and stick to the topic in hand. This is a really interesting thread with some well-informed arguments on both sides. We'd hate to have to delete it. Thanks!

[Yruapita]

malice comments like 'then Israel will stop showing them how it's done' are absolutely gross. Collective punishment and more dehumanisation in action.

You think this is is how it's done, do you? Have you seen the picture/footage of the baby with half a head missing and his father's grief? Is that how it's done? The deaths are real, the babies are real. It is makes for some horrific watching. This is what Israel is doing right now. Or is it ok because your government has dehumanised those babies? I feel sick reading posts that glorify Israel's sickening......genocide. Yes, it is what it is.....genocide.

Below is from Independent:

Speaking about what it would take to have Hamas accept a ceasefire, top official Moussa Abu Marzouk said: “The siege on Gaza must be broken and the people of Gaza should live freely like other people of the world. There should be a new equation so that we will not have a war on Gaza every two years.”
-
They want freedom. They dont want Israel coming in every 2 years to blow the Palestinians up.

Netanyahu's stance: “When there is no ceasefire, our answer is fire.”

Children are just collateral damage to him.

[Numanoid]

I agree, the statement "then Israel will stop showing them how it's done" it's absolutely disgusting. Human beings are being killed, it's not a game of one-upmanship.

If anyone is interested in increasing awareness of the atrocities committed against the Palestinians, there is a huge march in London on Saturday, and and many more in cities around the UK and Europe. It's well worth Googling, or searching FB events.

Around 100 people turned up to hear a 10-minute speech in my city earlier this week, so I expect our protest march is going to be enormous, attendance on FB alone is already well over 450.

[wordsmithsforever]

There was a big protest here today.

[halfdrunkcoffee]

Thehoneybadger I don't think you are anti-Semitic. I didn't like all your posts, but agree with much of what say in the recent ones about what you think Israel should do to make peace.

You rightly point out that not all Jews are Zionists and not all Zionists are Jews. However I do think you've mistaken a fringe group of rabbis for authoritative historians. What do you define as a true Jew anyway? Even the Jews can't agree about this! Zionism also has a long and complex history. Some early immigrants to Palestine/Israel probably weren't Zionists but many countries blocked or restricted Jewish immigration. I don't know if I would have been a Zionist pre-48 but now Israel is here I support its existence alongside justice for the Palestinians. Does that make me a Zionist? I don't know.

Numanoid- yes and I wish Israel would do so.

I think there is little hope for peace if we do not condemn all attacks on civilians whatever side they are from - now the violence has got the world's attention I wish both sides could stop killing each other.

[Yruapita]

The thing is that whenever Israel attacks, big brother US jumps up and expresses how it has a right 'to defend itself'. UK government (not its people) jumps up and repeats the same.

The people of UK are appalled by the leaders. The people against oppression are now saying:

“When you portray the occupier as the victim, and the occupied as the aggressor, we would like to remind you that resistance to occupation is a right under international law.” (Taken from Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Stop the War Coalition and CND open letter)

[MaliceInWonderland78]

Let's be clear. Hamas fires rockets into Israel with the intention of killing people. That they do so unsucessfully is neither here nor there. In that respect, the Israeli efforts could easliy be described as "showing them how it's done"

The first responsibility for any governemt is to protect its people. In this regard, I do believe that it's within Israel's gift to bring this to a swift (but horrific) conclusion - hence my comments around their 'remakable restraint'

I'm of the opinion that if Hamas had available to them the capabilities that the Israeli government do...........

[Springheeled]

Yes please don't get the thread deleted, it has not changed my opinion of Israel's actions one bit but the many links shared and comments posted have been fascinating.
I am so glad that social media can shine a light on the situation as well as at times bringing out the worst elements (not here, I mean on twitter etc) on both sides.
I have hopes that the situation will change and the siege will end. The Israeli govt and army are rightly condemned by all humanitarians and are sowing the seeds of their own destruction right now as the world is watching their actions in disgust.