I despair at Israel sometimes

[AndHarry]

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

This thread, which started out as quite civilised, is now quite depressing. If a group of Mumsnetters, most of whom are I presume not living in the Middle East (I know some posters have lived in Israel) cannot have a civilised conversation, what hope is there for dialogue between people who do live there? Most of the pro-Israel posters have IMO been quite moderate.

We will get nowhere with so much venom and inability to respect others' views. It is not a case that all Israelis are power-hungry land-grabbing genocidal maniacs and all Palestinians are innocent angels. There is right and wrong on both sides. There are crackpots and extremists on both sides, and a lot of people who just want to get on with their lives in peace, although sadly the latter do not seem to be represented in government. Perhaps even the terms pro-Israeli or pro-Palestinian are too simplistic; is it possible to just be pro-peace and pro-compromise?

wordsmithforever thanks for the link. I'd never heard of that organisation before but it speaks a lot of sense.

Another very interesting person is Izzeldin Abuelaish, a Gazan doctor who has worked in Israel and who is the author of "I Shall Not Hate." Three of his daughters were killed in the 2009 attack on Gaza. Yet he still believes that Israelis and Palestinians should talk to each other and achieve peace.

I have been following this thread from beginning and contrary to your belief Bam that unless directly linked people don't care, I want to say I DO CARE for all the innocent palestinians killed over the last week or so.

And just for the record I believe Israel is totally and utterly at fault for the current crisis and if social media is anything to go by the world is begining to realize this too.

Most people dont really care. Some people do care obviously. Hardly anyone on mn has bothered posting on such a big and current story. Only a handfull of posters even though its a 17 page thread.

No bam most people do care. I do not know a single person in RL who does not care. You do not care, that much is clear.

Earlier on I posted various initiatives which bring together people from all religions but especially Jews and Muslims with a view to building bridges. It is these kinds of movements which will start changing mindsets.

I would like to echo Satsuma and say I care too, I just don't know enough about it to post on here. I appreciate it is a highly nuanced subject, with many conflicting personal opinions, and it's because of the complexity of the issue that many people feel disinclined to stick their necks out on here. I just want to stop children and innocent people getting killed to be honest, everywhere, no matter what their religion is.

The truth is most people don't really care. They will see report on the news and cry for those dead children then turn over for Eastenders.

And the people that do care are ranting?

I haven't seen anyone on this thread say they don't care and don't want peace and that the Palestinains plight isn't awful - some posters are insisting on twisting words saying as cleanme did that I don't care etc. constantly twisting and putting words into the mouths that they aren't actually saying.

Feel free to quote me saying differently.

Mexican - who on this thread has said they don't care?

I think when people want to put an alternative to the apparently prevailing wisdom they can always be put down as 'ranters': e.g. When feminists raise objections to ingrained sexism or etc.
The imbalance and injustice of this situation does make many people feel very angry. Yet people can say things like my friend did about how 'Palestinians have small houses so they should be able to get out easily' and this is seen as a reasonable remark!!!

bambambini stop making yourself out to sound the victim! Everyone here is just having a debate and strong view on both sides have been aired- it's ok to disagree and pick each other up on things and seek clarification!

"And the people that do care are ranting?"

I'd say everyone on here probably cares or they wouldn't post. Yes a few (two in particular) were particularly insulting, twisting and ranty - they obviously cared much, much more and really really felt the pain much much more then anyone else. Yes - I got that, couldn't miss it really.

I'll just put this here:
www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4543634,00.html

This is what all these threads make me think of. I could argue both sides but no one would budge an inch from their views and all I will get are rants. But I find this type of rant deeply disturbing for the reasons set out in this article. Think about this and look at the facts calmly.

I care about what's happening I'm just scared of showing my ignorance.

I can understand why Hamas send rockets into Israel however I do not agree with this course of action. I can understand why Israel react when they have been provoked but I do not agree with their disproportionate actions and continuos treatment of those in the Gaza Strip (it reminds me of Edward I breaking the welsh by taking their identity from them).

I think there needs to be a program like the denazification of Germany where both sides learn to see each other as human again- I know it maybe extremists but there seems to be people on both sides who don't see the other as human.

I don't understand the expectation of Egypt or Jordan brokering peace. Egypt is not a stable country at the minute and Jordan has an upsurge of citizens joining ISIS so they are unlikely to do anything that could be interpreted as un-Islamic.

With regards to Iran, Israel may be trying to provoke them but it's very unlikely with ISIS in assent and the possibility of fighting a war on two fronts that Iran would take action on Israel. I have also read that relations have soured between Palestine and Iran due to ISIS gaining support there.

The Middle East is incredibly unstable at the minute and I'm seriously scared of the ISIS threat. Hamas and Israel both have a common enemy in ISIS and they should be working together to make sure they do not get a foothold in Gaza.

Thankyou to everyone else weighing in here with a bit of balance. I took a bit of a step back from the thread as I'm not the slightest bit interested in arguing about extremist views. Presenting the point of view from one side or the other is not the same as being a 'genocide supporter' or even a 'nob'. Twisting people's words, reading intentions that suit your own argument and posting goady rubbish is pathetic and unworthy of the seriousness of the topic.

I'd like to reiterate what I posted a few pages ago: King Hussein of Jordan said at the Wye River talks that once this conflict has been resolved then people on both sides of the conflict will look back and wonder what the problem was. Let the historians work out the exact proportion of blame over the last century. The role of governments on both sides is to end this terrible violence and work towards a lasting peace for their people.

Last point from me: apart from a couple of nutcases who posted once and then ran away, I haven't seen anyone on the thread express anything but horror and grief for the heavy civilian casualties and the suffering of normal people on both sides. No popcorn-munching psychopaths or UN specialists here so give people a chance to make their point and be slightly more forgiving to errors so we can all learn.

Honestly Tigger that article you linked to is seriously bonkers- who are these people who moan about Israel but not the bombing of Libya or war in Iraq?? I for one protested in all cases.
And how many more times must we have the argument about anti Zionism and anti semitism? It is a non starter- moreover it is deeply, deeply offensive and tbh if it is the best that the Israeli govt's defenders can do (to suggest that not liking the treatment of Palestinians is somehow equivalent to hating Jews) it really shows they don't have a leg to stand on- utter nonsense and SO offensive.

I haven't read all the posts here but would it be absolutely impossible that a fellow Israeli kidnapped and killed the 3 boys? We will probably never kmow the truth now because even if they find the boys' killer not to be Hamas, it will be kept quiet.

As much as one hopes for peace in that part of the world, can't help believing it may never happen (I think even the bible says so and yes I know, religion)

Spring if it is such a non starter why are there anti Israel marches in paris attacking synagogues not embassies and shouting death to the Jews? I finf that deeply offensive and threatening as do my family who live in the 11th. But that's not anti semitic according to you.

Llelo that is nonsense. There was enough phone evidence and other clues to make it clear who the murderers were. In addition where israelis did commit a murder shortly after this was identified and the perpetrators admitted and not hidden.

I care too and have been following the thread but as a veteran of previous thread (waves to donnie), I know how hard it is to find common ground between both sides simply because of the basic injustice through which Israel was created.

The more interesting question for me is, why is the US giving Israel blanket support and carte blanche to do as they will? Who benefits from this? Are there people who would like the conflict to continue and for there to be permanent unrest in the Middle East? Why does Israel get away with flouting UN resolutions and international law?

Also, I am angry with the oil-rich Arab states. Why are they not using their economic clout and oil leverage to influence the US and to support their co-religionists?

tiggersreturn I don't know where I condoned attacking synagogues and shouting death to the Jews! Why are people doing that? Erm because they are stupid idiots? How do you extrapolate from their actions that anti Zionism is the same thing as antisemitism? It's possible for most sentient beings to have absolutely no quarrel with people on the grounds of any aspect of their being but abhorr the actions of a state which commits crimes against humanity.

Triggersreturn, I've never heard anything about concrete evidence of who killed the boys in the news. Even if what you say is true, is the response justified? Why not go after whoever they are instead of indiscriminately killing people?

I'm surprised the boys parents are not calling for an end to this, surely it's tarnishing the memories of their kids. But then nothing is as simple as it sounds when it comes to Israel and Palestine.

IF the boys parents are religious settlers in the WB (bit of a wild guess there) then I doubt they will have much sympathy with the Palestinians. Though as they are grieving after such awful loss, might be better to not expect much from them.

Despair is the right word. Very well put by the OP.

I despair of Israel, of all nations, creating a ghetto and forcing the Palestinians into it. I despair of Israel being able to commit war crimes without the international community doing anything about it. Collective punishment is a war crime. It is illegal under international law.

There is indeed suffering amongst both Israelis and Palestinians but Israel's actions are murderously disproportionate. Collective punishment is illegal under international law, but Israel is allowed to get away with slaughtering as many Palestinian civilians, including babies and children, as they like.

I hope against hope that some of the projects that bring ordinary Palestinians and Israelis together will bear fruit, with people learning that those on the other side are ordinary people, with the same hopes and fears, parents who love their children and want them to stay alive.