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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

I despair at Israel sometimes

933 replies

AndHarry · 01/07/2014 12:07

Well, often really. I have family out there who have a bomb shelter in their house and have had to evacuate for weeks at a time so I have great sympathy for ordinary Israelis trying to go about their lives. What happened to 3 sch

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Yruapita · 11/07/2014 21:18

andharry. What was on Radio 4?

quivering some links. Will continue providing sources as i get time.

Israeli watchdog group cites settlement rise during peace talks
www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/29/us-palestinian-israel-settlements-idUSBREA3S0I120140429

Israel approved almost 14,000 settler homes and demolished over 500 Palestinian structures during 9 months of peace talks
mondoweiss.net/2014/04/demolished-palestinian-structures.html

And also here
www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=693796

Here is a report on children in Gaza and medical care. Funded by save the children UK.
www.mezan.org/upload/13131.pdf

It is quite long but some points:

Children seeking treatment in Israel, the West Bank (including East Jerusalem), or Jordan need a special permit to leave Gaza via Erez Crossing. This permit is issued by the Israeli security authorities and people are never allowed to cross Erez crossing without it. To obtain this permit, patients, including those with life?threatening illnesses, must go through a complex and lengthy bureaucratic process, which often leads to missed hospital appointments putting children’s lives at risk.

Many children have been denied permits to access medical treatment because their condition is not considered life?threatening; it only affects their ‘quality of life.’ Children’s relatives who accompany them to hospitals outside the Gaza Strip have also been forced to collaborate and inform on family, friends and neighbours in exchange for a permit. The permit policy and the policies which lead to their denials are not only a violation of IHL and IHRL; they are also a serious breach of medical ethics.

Israel also breaches children’s right to access medical care by denying ambulances access to certain areas of the Gaza Strip to treat those in need. Children in or near the Buffer Zone1 close to the border fence face the constant risk of being hurt by shrapnel from rockets or artillery fire, or being shot at by Israeli military. However, Palestinian ambulances need prior coordination and approval from Israeli military authorities to enter. These delays have resulted in the deaths of many children.

Through its policies towards the population of the Gaza Strip, Israel is in complete violation of the ICESCR, the UNCRC, the CAT and the 4th Geneva Convention. The right to health is for everyone and should not be denied in times of conflict to punish a population or in order to apply political pressure to an opposing side.

It makes me so angry.

Springheeled · 11/07/2014 21:23

And then people wonder why Hamas are in charge! Brutalise and dehumanise people and they will seek extreme solutions.

AndHarry · 11/07/2014 21:27

It was Any Questions? There was a good point raised about the Palestinians needing an international 'friend'. When Israel goes too far, the US butts in and tells them to tone it down. The Palestinians don't have anyone like that since the imprisonment of Mohammed Morsi. Most of the Arab world doesn't really want to know: they have troubles of their own and the conflict is a quagmire. Who's on the Palestinians' side? The stateless extremists using their plight as an advert to join their particular brand of jihad. What lovely, balanced, caring friends to have...

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AndHarry · 11/07/2014 22:11

Sorry for the multiple posts but...

Another leader with unacceptable rhetoric, no matter how much he might be in the right re. the overall cause: President Poroshenko of Ukraine says, "For every life of our soldiers, the militants will pay with tens and hundreds of their own." Heaven knows I think Putin is a disgusting specimen of humanity who carries full responsibility for the crisis in Ukraine but that statement legitimizes every Ukrainian loyalist hothead with a propensity to ignore the finer dictates of Ukrainian and international law. God forbid it triggers an incident that escalates into full-scale war.

Presidents, prime ministers and anyone else who claims to lead a nation should bloody well know better.

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AndHarry · 11/07/2014 22:12

:o

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cleanmean · 11/07/2014 22:29

I agree that there needs to be more friends and advisors to both parties. The international leaders have behaved disgracefully. No one has stepped in demanding a ceasefire or even attempting to negotiate. Where is the fucking UN?

The lack of condemnation is appalling. However, there seems to be a huge swell of support for palestine amongst people.

In my area alone I already know of 5 anti Israel demonstrations due to take place this weekend.

AndHarry · 11/07/2014 22:33

The UN is too unwieldy. It takes far too long to reach a consensus and the conpromises and accommodations involved mean that the final document or plan is often too nebulous to make any real difference. Which is a shame. The UN is a fantastic concept but it needs radical reform.

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halfdrunkcoffee · 11/07/2014 23:55

I've been reading this thread with interest. I’ve never yet been brave enough to get involved in an Israel/Palestine discussion online, and find they tend to go round in circles, but here goes...

I've read so many books on the Middle East over the past 10 years or so, by Tom Segev, Amos Elon, Amos Oz, David Grossman, Eugene Rogan, Martin Gilbert, Izzeldin Abuelaish - and I still find it hard to retain all the information, keep track of the history, and to know what to think about the whole situation. There seem to be so many divisions of peace even within the peace camp in Israel; it's not a simple case of hawks vs. doves. Disclaimer - I have some relatives on my dad's side in Israel, though I don't know them very well; I've only been there for holidays. Mostly, if I had world domination, I would just like to knock both sides' heads together, and tell them to stop behaving like toddlers saying "they hit me first". I don’t think it’s fair to apply all the blame to one side. Both sides have committed atrocities. I despair of Israel sometimes, and also of the Palestinians. I do not agree with the illegal settlement-building in the West Bank and I have little time for religious extremists who think God is some kind of estate agent.

A few years ago we went on a trip to Nablus in the West Bank with Green Olive Tours. The owner, who's Scottish-Israeli, had an interesting, if idealistic, proposal for the region. He thinks the whole area - Israel, the West Bank and Gaza - should become two states modelled on the EU. Israel would be predominantly Jewish in character, but Palestinians would be free to live and work there with equal rights. The West Bank and Gaza (including all the illegal settlements) would be mainly Palestinian, but Israelis would also be free to live and work there.

My maternal grandparents (who weren't Jewish) were very left-wing and fervent supporters in the 1940s of the creation of Israel. This interests me because most of the criticism of Israel tends to come from the left nowadays and I wonder if my grandparents had been born 60 years later they would have become pro-Palestinian campaigners. Sadly they are now dead so I can't ask them more about their feelings at the time, or to apply the benefit of hindsight. I think their view was that the Jewish people, after all the anti-Semitism that culminated in the Holocaust, not to mention the refusal of other countries to admit more Jewish refugees, deserved a home of their own. I think they thought that the Palestinian population could choose to stay there and live in a Jewish state, moving on from the British Mandate or the Ottoman Empire, or move to a neighbouring Arab country where they would become full citizens with equal rights (rather than still in a refugee camp 65 years later). Maybe they thought this would all be done without a War of Independence...I don’t know. I am sure historians will continue to debate Israel’s creation for years to come, but in the meantime I just hope that people can move forward to some kind of two-state solution and to stop the bloodshed in the region.

Yruapita · 12/07/2014 01:58

quivering. You talked about an empty nursery being hit by Hamas rocket. Here are sone facts about Israeli security forces in 2013.

There were 58 education-related incidents affecting over 11,000 Palestinian children, with 41 of them involving Israeli security forces operations near or inside schools, forced entry without forewarning, the firing of tear gas canisters and sound bombs into school yards and, in some cases, structural damage to schools.

In 15 of the incidents, Israeli security forces fired tear gas canisters into schools run by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), some during class hours, without forewarning – p19/50

I cannot express how sickened I feel over Israel's vile treatment of palestinian children.

Yruapita · 12/07/2014 02:06

Here's more (same source)

The following is taken from the recent UN general assembly security council report A/68/878-S/2014/339 – Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Children:

"In 2013, eight Palestinian children were killed by Israelis, and no Israeli children were killed by Palestinians" – p17/50; "1,265 Palestinian children were injured by Israelis, and eight Israeli children were injured by Palestinians" – p17/50.

"1,004 Palestinian children were arrested by Israeli security forces, with 107 of them (including five children under the age of 12) reporting cruel and degrading ill-treatment by the Israel Defense Forces and the Israeli police, including painful restraint, blindfolding, strip-searching, verbal and physical abuse, solitary confinement and threats of violence" – p18/50

I need to stop looking for these reports, its upsetting me a lot. I knew that Israel is oppressive, i am just finding out the extent if its depraved degrading dehumanising treatment of children.

Honey was right in everything she said about Israel. These are crimes against humanity.

TheHoneyBadger · 12/07/2014 08:43

they just are. it's not even about pointing fingers - these ARE crimes against humanity.

no but they did this or but look at this petrol station or......... etc undoes that.

no other state in the world would be receiving millions from europe and the US whilst committing atrocities like this. we have to stop supporting this.

treadheavily · 12/07/2014 08:58

Like some of the posters here I have family in Israel and hadn't felt especially concerned for their wellbeing as they are so accustomed to conflict, shelter etc. But yesterday one of them died following a rocket attack, she had a heart attack while running to a bomb shelter when the siren went off in the early morning.
It puts such a human face on the statistics, the arguments etc. People going about their lives. Time to let them be.

AndHarry · 12/07/2014 09:22

I'm sorry treadheavily.

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cleanmean · 12/07/2014 09:23

Oh tread I'm sorry for your loss.

TheHoneyBadger · 12/07/2014 09:48

very sorry for your loss treadheavily.

Backinthering · 12/07/2014 10:16

Children at a centre for the disabled have now been killed. Horrific footage on Al Jazeera.

cleanmean · 12/07/2014 10:34

Just seen footage of that, them poor children. And the death toll continues to rise. Hundreds of thousands of palestinians displaced again. Netanyahu planning more strikes.

TheHoneyBadger · 12/07/2014 10:41
Sad

the world needs to act. stop supporting them financially and morally and start applying sanctions as they would with any other state behaving like this.

Springheeled · 12/07/2014 12:00

That'll be the day honeybadger :(
But I can't see a solution- sanctions would hurt ordinary Israelis. Surely not all Israelis condone the madness and atrocities of their leaders?

Yruapita · 12/07/2014 14:08

The world is appalled, but why are the leaders silent???

Disabled people are dead. They couldnt even leave.

See the dead children on Al Jazeera.

I cant take anymore of this and i am just a bystander!!

justasecond · 12/07/2014 14:11

120 Palestinians now dead mostly civilians, many women and children including 4 toddlers. My heart breaks for them. How can the world stand by and let this happen?
Israel is clearly using this as an excuse to wipe out as many Palestinians as they can. Giving someone a warning before you blow their lives apart does not absolve them in any way. A disabled woman was amongst the killed last night because she couldnt leave the building in time.
Where are they expected to go when they are blockaded in from all sides in such a small area ?And that rooftop party comment upthread was indeed utterly sickening.

justasecond · 12/07/2014 14:13

Thats right Yruapita and you can't unsee the images of suffering children. Just take a look at some of the stuff on twitter, will haunt me forever.

cleanmean · 12/07/2014 14:24

The warning , as reported by the Jews For The Palestinian Right of Return, is 57 seconds. That isn't even enough time to grab your kids and get to the door let alone get to safety. The whole world is appalled at the genocide. Every influential leader from Mandela, to Ghandi, Martin Luther King to Desmond tutu has condemned israeli actions in the past. If anyone knows about apartheid and inequality it's these people.

Yruapita · 12/07/2014 15:42

truth-out.org/opinion/item/12635-noam-chomsky-my-visit-to-gaza-the-worlds-largest-open-air-prison

This article above is few years old written by Noam Chomsky but talks of punishing Gaza for daring to vote the wrong way by electing Hamas!

Backinthering · 12/07/2014 16:04

Just saw the footage of the aftermath of the attack on the disabled centre. I cried. This isn't right, it's monstrous.