Missing MH370 thread cont...

[Pennies]

Old thread here

New thread here.

"How much will we actually be able to tell from the wreckage, the black box, etc? Will we, for example, be able to tell whether the plane was hijacked?"

It depends - if they pulled out the circuit breaker fromt he Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) and the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) when they did the other communications system, we're unlikely to ever be 100% certin about what happened. You can't tell that from the wreckage.

"Goldie, your posts have been awesome btw, thanks for taking the time to help us all understand it. You write very clearly and explain things incredibly well, makes all the difference thanks"

You're welcome

What is more likely to stop me, is goldies assertion that any plane landing on the sea is pretty much guaranteed to break up on landing, so the little pictures of the plane on water with its slides out have been fibbing to us!!

"The black box contains cockpit voice recordings so I would think in most hijack scenarios they would reveal what happened."

"tunip thank you for clarifying re black box. Wasn't sure if it recorded voice or just data eg flightpath etc."

There are two, separate boxes. DFDR records flight path, pilot inputs and lots of other technical parameters; CVR records voices in the cockpit. However, they can be deactivated from the cockpit and they're generally on a 2 hour 'loop', so only have the last 2 hours worth of data.

'It depends - if they pulled out the circuit breaker fromt he Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) and the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) when they did the other communications system, we're unlikely to ever be 100% certin about what happened.'

Thanks Goldie.
It never occurred to me they would be able to do that!

Sorry goldie. I meant the air traffic map?
I had assumed that at the same time they went missing from this they disappeared completely radar too? Would air traffic control not use them both? I suppose before now I would have considered them to be one and the same.

There is the question of how the plane is going to get into anyone else's airspace. From reading this thread, am I correct in saying that the transponder could be switched/reprogrammed (somehow) to "look" like another, legitimate flight. But the thing is-presumably, hopefully, every air traffic control etc will be alert to this possibility and on high alert anyway for any 777 that might not be what it seemed?

"Why would someone stealing it for a future act have to have this particular 777, rather than a much easier to acquire smaller commercial boeing?"

Depends what you want to do with it and where you're trying to fly it. Maybe you need the 6000 mile range fof the 777 and not the 2000 mile range of the 727?

"From reading this thread, am I correct in saying that the transponder could be switched/reprogrammed (somehow) to "look" like another, legitimate flight. "

Do you mean if the hijackers plan to reuse the plane?

"so the little pictures of the plane on water with its slides out have been fibbing to us!!"

Sadly, yes. It can be done but it's very rarely done with any degree of success....

What, even if I remove my high heels, Goldie?

Did the slides on the Hudson River plane even deploy?

Leading on from the misleading pics on the laminates...is it true Goldie that the reason you are advised to get into the brace position is to ensure a less painful death by breaking your neck? Heard that once.

"Sorry goldie. I meant the air traffic map?
I had assumed that at the same time they went missing from this they disappeared completely radar too? Would air traffic control not use them both? I suppose before now I would have considered them to be one and the same."

I guess what you mean is primary civilian radar. It's relatively primitive, and isn't a map as such. Civilian radar might be turned off in some places overnight if there's no expected traffic. In any case its range tends to be quite limited.

Military radar is a whole other ball game. It's usually much more powerful, much more sophisticated and should be in use 24 hours per day - your enemies aren't usually kind enough to attacky you in daylight hours between 9 and 12 or 1 and 5 with an hour off for lunch.

It's why I find it hard to believe that no military radar tracked them and found out where the were. A 300 tonne machine flying at 500 mph at 35000 feet looks remarkably like a bomber!

"There are two, separate boxes. DFDR records flight path, pilot inputs and lots of other technical parameters; CVR records voices in the cockpit. However, they can be deactivated from the cockpit and they're generally on a 2 hour 'loop', so only have the last 2 hours worth of data."

Wow. So even in the best case scenario, assuming the plane has crashed into the sea, we would probably only have the information that led up to the crash-not the actual hijacking? And that's assuming that the black boxes weren't disabled?

The message from the cockpit "all right, good night"-would that have been recorded anywhere?

"Did the slides on the Hudson River plane even deploy?"

Yep - that A320 did everything it was supposed to do and more besides. My little baby is that A320.

"is it true Goldie that the reason you are advised to get into the brace position is to ensure a less painful death by breaking your neck? "

No! Wherever did you hear that????

Its one of those common myths, up there with the oxygen in decompression being to make the passengers lucid so they dont care that they are going down

'It depends - if they pulled out the circuit breaker from the Digital Flight Data Recorder (DFDR) and the Cockpit Voice Recorder (CVR) when they did the other communications system, we're unlikely to ever be 100% certain about what happened.'

Now that is fascinating. I never knew that they could deactivate the cockpit voice recorder from the cockpit (despite having watched a lot of episodes of "Air Crash Investigation" ). Has there ever been a situation (apart from perhaps the present one) where this has caused problems for investigators? Why does it delete after two hours; is it privacy concerns on the part of pilots?

Horrifically vague question for Goldie: Crashes and hijackings and near misses seem to very often lead to new procedures being implemented. From what little is widely known about this accident so far, what kinds of changes do you think might be made to help prevent whatever has happened from happening again? Or is it just too early to speculate?

goldie, what's the significance of the fact the last pilot contact was made after the transponders/communication equipment had started being shut down? The media seem to be making a lot of this. Is it just that things had started happening by this point but he appeared to be communicating 'normally' (although may have been under duress?). Just wondered if I'd missed something. Thanks so much for all your posts and insights, really interesting reading!

There are a few urban legends about the brace position. Another one is that it is designed to try and protect your skull and therefore your dental records for identification.

what kinds of changes do you think might be made to help prevent whatever has happened from happening again?

Sorry, just read that back, sounds so fatuous.

I want to join the Goldie fanclub please!

This: "It's why I find it hard to believe that no military radar tracked them and found out where the were. A 300 tonne machine flying at 500 mph at 35000 feet looks remarkably like a bomber!"

This is what I dont understand. Especially in that neck of the woods.

themaltese - the flight recorders in this crash were disabled, probably deliberately

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SilkAir_Flight_185

have to say i find the news that all of these 'black box' and other recording devices can just be switched off a bit of a shock. are they just tokenistic look we're doing something installations or what?

Ah yes on my 727/777 question, i do know that a 777 flies further, I was just thinking that from a hijack and reuse standpoint, being able to 'sneak' closer to any target (not saying anyone would use the awol 727 of course, just trying to reassure people worried about future attack that planes have gone missing before with no attack :) ) with a more common plane might outweigh the benefits of a larger range? Iyswim?

The thing that I don't understand (and I've really tried!) is why the Malaysians are insisting that the plane must be in one of those two corridors/on one of the two arcs.

I understand that the last recorded satellite ping was situated somewhere along one of those arcs. AFAIK, this simply means that the plane was on the arc at one point in its journey.

If it crashed/landed immediately after that ping, then yes, it would be in one of the two corridors now. If it continued flying for up to another half-hour/hour (seem to be some inconsistencies as to how regular the pings were) before crashing/landing, it could be some way outside those corridors, surely? The media seem to be treating the arcs as flight paths, suggesting that the plane was continuing along the line. There is also some inconsistency over the possible flight range of the plane; some sources seem to suggest that there could have been a further couple of hours of fuel in the tanks after that ping. Is it possible that several hours in, whoever was controlling the plane became aware that the satellite communication was still open and switched it off? The plane could then be a further couple of hours away from that arc. Unlikely, but still a possibility. I suppose this is partly covered by the concept of 'corridors'; it's just that the authorities haven't actually specified how wide these corridors could be.

I think there's some confusion (deliberate?) on the part of the authorities and some misunderstandings on the part of the media, but unless you knew in which direction the plane was heading at the point at which the flight path intersected with the satellite circle, as well as its speed, altitude and remaining fuel range, it's very difficult to say that the plane 'must be' in one of those corridors, only that it once was. E.g. If the ping was received when the plane was at the very bottom of the Northern arc, and it then changed direction and flew southwest for half an hour or so, SAR are not going to find it in either corridor, it'll be in the no-mans-land (or sea) between.

Can someone explain where the flaw is in this, because I'm sure there must be one or the international powers wouldn't all have deployed assets as they have, but I cannot work it out. I know nothing about planes, maybe you simply can't get that far in the possible time? Maybe the pings are definitive and more frequent than I've understood (I.e. they know the plane must have crashed/landed within 14 mins of the last ping or there'd have been another one...).