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Working class children need to try to be more middle class to get on!

370 replies

rollonthesummer · 03/03/2014 09:53

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10671048/Working-class-children-must-learn-to-be-middle-class-to-get-on-in-life-government-advisor-says.html

OP posts:
Twilight23 · 04/03/2014 07:36

I wish someone had sat me down and explained which university courses would have given me the opportunity to command a high salary benefited me.

My dm was happy enough that I was attending university,the course was irrelevant!

JessePinkmansMom · 04/03/2014 08:03

Gove has said the unsayable, but I do believe that he is right this time. There are children in dd's class whose working class accent is so broad that they practically need speech and language therapy. There is nothing wrong with regional accents, but everything wrong with lazy speech where children fail to pronounce their vowels property. I can see poor pronouncation entering dd's speech. For example she misspelt water as "worer" . It is going to be hard for children with incomprendible thick accents to get middle class jobs where good communication skills are essential.

I completely agree with this. (although I think it's unfair to pick on vowel sounds specifically - they vary hugely from region to region, and it's perfectly possible to articulate yourself extremely clearly with ugly vowels.) Grin

People mistake a requirement to 'speak properly' as being asked to shed all traces of regional accent. It does not mean that at all - it just means that if you are not capable of enunciating clearly and do not have a decent grasp of basic grammar then it will be very difficult to learn spell, to be understood clearly outside of your own social environment, or (most importantly) to reach the required standard of written and spoken English that enables you to thrive and be taken seriously in a professional environment.

If you get a poker up your arse over this and you cannot accept that there is ahuge middle ground between asking someone to drop the 'Vicki Pollard' and demanding that they mimic Kirstie Allsopp then you are being very blinkered and obstructive.

Sometimes very working class people (especially young men IME) do themselves no favours. In bloody-minded determination to be true to their roots they often swagger, grunt, mumble, display defensive or aggressive body language, and basically just refuse to scrub up a bit and learn the art of 'best foot forward' and making a good impression.

There is a culture of stubborn 'learned helplessness' that can affect everything from dreadful grammar, poorly written CVs and letters of introduction, inappropriate attire for a business environment, appearing rude or gauche because of a lack of awareness of basic etiquette, to (at the extreme end) disgusting table manners.

Even a dogged attachment to casual vernacular speech and the reluctance to use 'big words' due to either a lack of confidence, or a fear of acting 'posh and poncey' could result in someone appearing inarticulate, one dimensional and not very bright.

That may not be the case at all, of course, but it is the impression it might give.

If you listen to working class and lower MC young teenagers chatting you will notice they often use descriptions like clever brainy posh snob goody-goody and nerd as interchangeable. There seems to be a very misguided but implicit understanding among many of them (given their often limited exposure to people they perceive as 'posh') that you cannot be any of those things without automatically being the other.

That attitude needs to change, for several reasons, but not least because it creates real barriers in encouraging many young WC people to aspire both at school and beyond. They start to believe their own nonsense - that only 'snobby' or 'posh' people are clever, self-disciplined and well-behaved, and to aspire to any of those things is to be 'snobby.'

That's fine if they are happy to continue the status quo by becoming skilled or unskilled manual workers, blue collar workers etc, and there is certainly no shame in any of that at all.

But in order to aim for something with more scope for advancement and financial and social mobility they may need to brush up on their personal presentation skills. And just accept that making an effort to appear more appealing to people in authority is, annoyingly, the most cast-iron route to getting on in life.

And if they are not prepared to do that, out of some warped sense of disloyalty to their class then they can expect to stay exactly where they are.

JessePinkmansMom · 04/03/2014 08:05

Sorry, there were some unacceptably long sentences there. Shock

wordfactory · 04/03/2014 08:20

jesse I agree with a lot of what you say.

It was only a generation ago that pursuing education at all was seen as disloyal to working class roots. That you were setting yourself apart from your WC peers.

Thank God this has now been largely put to bed.

But there does still exist this idea that change in any form is a bad thing. Be it your accent, your ideas, your way of dressing, your way of presenting yourself. In order to remain true to your backgrouynd, this must remain static.

I find this absurd. Human beings always adapt and moderate. It's how we thrive.

WC children already have huge barriers to social mobility, let's not give them even more by saddling them with some moral compunction to remain unchanged.

donttrythisathome · 04/03/2014 08:57

Twilight, I elaborated on soft skills back on maybe page 2 of the thread. But basically I mean certain types of social skills. I think regardless of class people generally learn basic manners, how to have an intelligent conversation, eat politely etc. But there are other skills like leadership skills, a certain reserve, office etiquette, how to behave appropriately in hierarchies, being self-possessed and having self-confidence etc that are you are more likely to have if your parents/friends' parents had MC type jobs. This is is my experience anyway.

As Jesse says as well, many people just don't have the permission so to speak to get ahead in life. They reject the manners and the learning they have actually acquired and present themselves as way more "common" than they are. I did this. If you strive for something higher up the social scale, then this is seen as a criticism of what you are leaving behind. There's a fear of rejection and a fear of the unknown (the "snobs" i.e. the middle class). This leads to confrontational behaviour and a fear to display your talents, which is the opposite of soft skills.

Much of this is sub-conscious. Tis hard to explain.

Agree the so-called underclass are simply the poorest and most disadvantaged amongst us. To say they are a different breed, as if they have inferior genes, plays right into the hands of those who would keep the poor fighting each other, rather than looking at the real causes of poverty and social inequality.

Ubik1 · 04/03/2014 09:11

Am enjoying this thread Smile

I think that moderating language and behaviour - something we all do in a professional situation - does help to some extent but there are other barriers which have a greater effect on wc children's social mobility IMH0

One of the major barriers is networking. It's much easier to acquire work experience in a law firm if your best friend asks her mummy's law firm and, in return, your daddy allows her an internship in his dept at the BBC.

Also resilience. I've MC friends who take severe knocks in their professional life and shrug it off. They believe in themselves. I think WC children are much more likely to see it as confirming all the doubts they already had about their ability to fit in.

Ubik1 · 04/03/2014 09:12

If you strive for something higher up the social scale, then this is seen as a criticism of what you are leaving behind.

YY to this

donttrythisathome · 04/03/2014 09:24

Yes ubik, having contacts is a huge advantage and the lack of them is a huge barrier. There was no way I could become a barrister (different country though at the time) as I just didn't have contacts and you had to have them. Also didn't learn any debating skills in my WC school.

I only got ahead because I was lucky enough to come across a WC contact who had got ahead and gave me a chance. This must be very very rare!

Also agree on the lack of resilience that comes from low self-esteem. Low self-esteem/impostors syndrome also made me very defensive, and convinces I wasn't good enough and that no-one values me because I wasn't like em, which of course also holds you back.

donttrythisathome · 04/03/2014 09:26

Sorry for all the typos, mistakes. Conforming to the stereotype now! I just can't type and am on a iPad.

Defensive, see?!

Ubik1 · 04/03/2014 09:27
Grin
NK5BM3 · 04/03/2014 09:29

I'm forrin, but been here many many years and married to a MC professional man who has WC roots. Grin

If you strive for something higher up the social scale, then this is seen as a criticism of what you are leaving behind.

I agree totally with this sentence though, and much of what Jesse says.

I don't understand why it's not acceptable to 'improve' whatever 'improve' is. Isn't it all about the 'value-added'? so your father could be a plumber, you could be a plumber but expanded the firm to a bigger one, your son/daughter could be a plumber and take it national! what's wrong with that?

funnyossity · 04/03/2014 10:03

The problem of adaptation has been been touched on earlier. There is sometimes a desire to spot and put down the "upstart", for example Carole Middleton has had some inexplicable (to me) criticism.

columngollum · 04/03/2014 11:01

Upstart spotting and downputting could simply be attributed to having a shitty character and wishing to exercise it.

StabInTheDark · 04/03/2014 11:54

Agree with the idea that often it's not what you know but who you know that is important. So even if working class kids were to take heed of this article and work on 'improving themselves', when it comes down to it, such-and-such will get the work placement or promotion because daddy knows the boss...

There are so many factors, lots of which have been mentioned on this thread, that make things difficult for working class kids. I know so many bright, polite, well presented working class teenagers who just don't have the chances that their middle class peers do. For me, it's insulting that the onus should be placed on them to 'improve'. Different of course for individuals that don't have a basic awareness of etiquette etc, but in my opinion this could be a child from any class.

I find it sad and insulting that the emphasis is on working class kids to 'improve themselves' when not an awful lot is being done to level the playing field by the top professions and institutions.

JessePinkmansMom · 04/03/2014 12:02

My worst nightmare is if any of mine turned out like to be like Gove and Co.

That attitude is what helps keep Gove and his ilk exactly where they are.

Hullygully · 04/03/2014 12:12

Everyone seems to have differing ideas of what constitutes WC

funnyossity · 04/03/2014 12:19

Rough types Hully! Wink

MerryMarigold · 04/03/2014 12:33

JessePinkman, I can't see how if you're exceptional WC kids turn into Gove & Co. then it makes any difference anyway. They will still maintain the status quo and then die or move on, only for Gove & Co to carry on. What you want is someone different who manages to make it to PM or at least Ed Sec.

JessePinkmansMom · 04/03/2014 12:37

Agree with the idea that often it's not what you know but who you know that is important.

But this is true across all levels of society, not just the privileged few. People seem to forget that, when they talk about opportunities/top jobs falling into the laps of the poshos because of their hifalutin connections.

Doctors breed doctors, lawyers breed lawyers, teachers breed teachers, soldiers breed soldiers, musicians breed musicians.

Do you think builders, plumbers, and small business owners don't give their own children apprenticeships and full-time jobs were they can? Do you think that kid's first car insurance is not paid for through the business? Do you think every person who works as a Director in a company that was started by their parents or grandparents has got there by fighting off stiff competition and being the best in their field? Hmm I don't think so, somehow.

The difference is, if you run a window cleaning round or a mini cab company you can only give your children a leg-up into the window cleaning or mini-cab business. Which is a perfectly respectable and adequate living, I'm sure, but it does rather create the illusion that only very privileged, 'posh' people operate a 'jobs for the boys' policy, and are able to hand their children and their friends' children opportunity on a plate.

My friend's son graduated from a low-brow uni with a 2:2 in a pretty woolly/useless subject, he had never worked a day in his life and to put it bluntly, is a very nice lad but as thick as two short planks.

He sat on the dole for two years, couldn't even get a part-time job at Asda, went for the interview and was turned down. Then his parents' friend who is a postman got him a foot in the door at the post office, on a trial basis as casual staff. He then converted to permanent and is now a fuul-time postman, enjoying his job and doing very well, all things considered.

It's not what you know, but who you know, eh? Wink

donttrythisathome · 04/03/2014 12:48

Yes Jesse of course the system of connections is at play everywhere.
The crucial point is disadvantage.
MC kids aren't disadvantaged because their parents have no WC connections generally to help them get WC jobs. Most people don't want to move down the social scale

StabInTheDark · 04/03/2014 12:58

So it's fine then, that so-and-so loses out on an internship in a top law firm to the head's neighbour's son, because at least his dad will be able to give him a leg up into a plumbing job?

Twilight23 · 04/03/2014 13:00

Don'ttry Thanks for the explanation.

I agree that often it is who you know or already being known especially in careers such as media. Take Rochelle and Marvin Humes who have presented This Morning on a number of occasions. They have no prior experience at all.

There are so many things I wish I had known as a teenager/in my early twenties. As a teenager I did not realise universities existed in the 70's when my patents were young. No adults I knew, despite how successful they were had ever attended.

I did not even know how mortgages worked until I was in my early twenties. When I heard people had 'bought' their properties I assumed they had bought them outright. I wondered how they had access to so much money Blush and

I really am going to encourage my dc to be the best. I am going to take them to museums, theatres, nice restaurants when we reduce our outgoings so these things will be deemed the norm for them. I grew up thinking so many things in life were out of my reach.

Hullygully · 04/03/2014 13:04

As well as museums, galleries etc, the best thing one can do is talk to them, and teach them how to think and how the world works. Encourage them to think about who is saying what, and more importantly why. Teach them to take nothing, and no one at face value. Talk to them about history and politics, and all the stuff that school doesn't. All that is free.

Hullygully · 04/03/2014 13:05

And Vested Interests. Tell them about those. How the biggest challenge for the wealthiest throughout the last century has been to persuade the poor top keep them in power and let their wealth grow.

Hullygully · 04/03/2014 13:08

The idea being to know thine enemy.