Working class children need to try to be more middle class to get on!

[rollonthesummer]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/10671048/Working-class-children-must-learn-to-be-middle-class-to-get-on-in-life-government-advisor-says.html

Why not put them into comprehensives?

No grammar schools around here.

Agree that it is difficult to have the ambition though if your parents don't even know what you might be able to achieve and school doesn't tell you. I had no idea certain kinds of jobs existed like Jimmycorkhill says. Many of my friends parents did have ambitions for them, but aimed too low. Like presuming people like us couldn't go to uni etc. it was never suggested to us in school that we could be lawyers or anything like that, not were we told how different universities are valued in different ways.

My hope is my DD feels able to be her own person and is filed with self-esteem. But I am going to make sure that she know what the game is, and how people play it, so she is not at sea and clueless like I was. Knowledge is power.

Yes Lordpalmerston, when I come across youngsters like that I do cry literally for my young self, my friends from back then, and all less privileged people, for the things we did not get and know. Mind you, I also value the things we did get- a lack of smugness, complacency etc. and moving between different worlds does give you an unique outsiders view, and makes you more well-rounded and if you are lucky, empathetic. F* though, it's a hard road to travel.

I am working class , as common as they come, with a thick regional accent. I was given a horrific time at university and an equally horrific time by the people I worked with in my first job - for a very middle class company. I was regularly ridiculed in front of everyone. I went through a phase of trying to look middle class and it just made things worse, a certain type of middle class person loves to look for an impersonator.

My husband and I now mix in very middle class circles because our friendship group was very much influenced by our universities and later careers. We constantly feel out of place and it is a feeling I never want my children to have. I hate the idea that we may be making them ashamed of their working class routes however I never want my children to be made to feel as small as I was made to feel.

I have tried to reach a compromise by encouraging them to do lots of extra curricular activities. We take a certain amount of amusement in the fact that one of our sons is the local fencing champion!

Although I think many working class children don't do lots of activities for financial reasons rather than class. The same goes for going to the theatre and eating out frequently.

It strikes me that we close down many sources of working class employment and then belittle them for not having the money to send their child to endless activities.

Exactly MrsDV, people are looking the wrong way for the solution.

The people looking down need to change their attitudes, why would I teach my children to be like them?

MRsdevere as I read it, most people on this thread don't think this is the morally right thing to do, or that people should have to do it. I think almost everyone thinks it is grossly unfair and inequitable. People are talking about the prejudice they have personally encountered or seen around them.
Personally I would have preferred to know that this prejudice existed and that ambition and ability alone probably wasn't enough, or at least how my background and lack of certain skills would be viewed by certain people.

Yeah it is crap. But is is, nonetheless. Knowing about it from the outset have helped me either fight against it, opt into it, or opt out of it. Without the steep and distressing learning curve.

I think ill-mannered obnoxious kids can exist in any class btw.

I have actually read the telegraph article now and find it very offensive. As a working class family we eat out in restaurants frequently because we are a relatively rich working class family - nothing to do with class.

I think like working class person and have been very successful. We can help children be more successful if we left them out of poverty, having middle class thoughts ( whatever they are ) is if no use.

Quite right Don'ttry.
Ever been exposed to a bunch of braying public schoolboys?

Lift them out of poverty - sorry clearly being working class I am illiterate. I must try harder to be middle class,

At work I was talking about the lolz working with my teen to help him revise. Several kids (from more disadvantaged families) sighed and said they wished their parents were teachers. It was embarassing and humbling.

It is totally offensive philospothy isn't it? As if the WC was some big amorphous uncivilised mass that slurps directly from their bowl of gruel. FFS. The advantage for our children is that they will never hold these ignorant views because of us!
Unfortunately I think there is a grain of truth amongst the general ignorant bilge though, as I've already gone into at length.

I have lamb. But I've also encountered obnoxious rude WC kids. Being balanced, like ;-)

My children are very capable of being rude and obnoxious. I do hope that they will never use the advantages they have in life to make others feel small. I will have failed my children if they become snobs.

I never had a really broad northern accent...but I did have one. Come from a pretty MC background...
I went for a job as a chef (so not a high ranking professional job) in London and later found out I got a trial on the strength of my CV as at the interview neither of the people interviewing (a Canadian and a Southerner) could tell half of what I was saying...luckily as I worked with them they could understand me and over time I developed a southern accent (and got the piss taken out of me back up north!)
I now have a really mixed accent (moved around a bit and pick accents up easily) but people can understand me ...I do get how even a not very broad accent could hold you back...
And some of this stuff is really hard to know or even learn without guidance...maybe the emphasis should be on people being less judgmental - maybe there isn't a right way/word and a wrong one?
My sister went to private school (I didn't) I remember her coming home and telling us she had been taught how to hold her knife and fork properly - and actually being a bit confused ...then later I came across snobbery about it (mixed with some lovely people for a while) ... and still didn't understand until later I noticed the way a boyfriend of the time held his knife...the wrong way - and found out I had grown up using cutlery the 'right way'...

How the hell do you teach things like that in every area of someone's life?

I'm not sure that everything can be learned in advance unlucky83. Maybe I am wrong.
But you can be made aware that "look folks there are certain prejudices out there, and an expected way of behaving. It is not right but there are hierarchies at play, and ability is only half the battle".

At least if you know this generally, though not all the skills, then you know what you are up against. It would sort of depersonalise it all as we'll, so you don't spend ages wondering what you are doing wrong, or whether there is something wrong with you. You will know it is not you, not your fault but just a general unfairness.

The lines between Working Class and Middle Class are very narrow these days. What defines Working Class as opposed to Middle class ?

Most academic kids get to University these days anyway don't they.

The way I found it when growing was "The People who in this websites eyes would be Working Class" . The Ones without Higher Qualifications or Professions , would be the ones with the higher standards at the dinner table the correct use of knifes and forks, the most polite and respectful Children came from the Working Class.

I went in to many Middle class homes of Professionals , kids left to eat their TV dinners playing on their Spectrum's . The kids of many of those professionals being the most rude, arrogant kids you could ever meet also b the ones displaying the terrible "Social Graces" to their guests.

What has happened though is that standards have dropped all over and in days gone by "The Working Classes" always had a Sunday Best attitude, that attitude has sadly gone today.

However I don't think Working class exists in its true form because I believe it is crosses over in to the middle class and is almost impossible to spot. The culture is the same Between Middle/Working Class today , the problem is the Underclass not the Working Class ,nobody is making the distinction between the two most significant groups

The way I found it when growing up was that " The People who in this Website"

I'd rather have someone be rude to me as a dinner guest than be a boy spending his first night in a boarding school. (At least the masters are getting locked up these days.) I'm not sure what's happening to the older boys. (I suspect they're the ones getting the bankers' bonuses.)

I don't agree that all clever kids can get to uni. Not if the aspiration is not there and so much depends on finance too.

Also, what do you mean by 'underclass'?

People watch programmes like Benefit street and think that's what all WC people are like.
It suits them to think that though. Makes them feel all clever.

The Working Class are those who go to work each day and have aspirations for their family in Education, want good food Clothes and well being for their family, they want to achieve in their job as much as possible. They strive as much as possible for their family.

The Underclass is a breed that is completely different to this. They don't have any aspirations for their family in terms of Education and they have a could not care type attitude to life. It has nothing to do with being "Unemployed" It is a mindset of some people who believe that anything goes "Stealing", Drinking , Fighting threatening Neighbours and using what resources they have for themselves as opposed to their family.

Student Finance : If you for a moment forget the belief that Education Should be free . The amount anything becomes payable is a salary of £23000 ( Probably the real average salary in the uk) then it is a very reasonable £13 Per Month ( Sky TV is £80 a Month ) Council tax Upwards of £100 Per Month . In the World we live in today £13 Per month is the cheapest Credit anyone can get . I honestly believe that for anyone with Academic Ability it is only like paying for a "Insurance Policy" and at £13 per Month is affordable .

I think possibly people can see the numbers and become frightened by them , without realising that £13 A month is not worth cancelling going on to Academic study at University.

And do you actually believe that this 'underclass' exists? That it's not just a nicely convenient social construct? Because for me, when I watch shows like Benefits Street and see headlines about 'Welfare Scroungers', all I see is careful propaganda that is built to demonise the poorest in society.

Calling it a 'breed' to me seems awful. It's actual human beings you're describing there.

motown I don't think all clever kids can get to university. Between raw ability and offers of places a lot needs to happen; good teaching, supportive family, excellent advice and hard cash.

The more competitive the course/university, the more important these factors are.

As for laons, well actually, DC from seriously impoverished families fare better, than those from trad WC families. The former can access bursaries etc, the later will need to get loans.

However, the standard maintenance loan simply does not cover even basic maintence. Often it doesn't cover halls of residence in the first year, let alone books, travel, food, clothes, tolietries. And work is often difficult to find and/or combine for lots of students students. The reality is that parents have to help!

Jimmy and don't try I am interested in knowing what 'soft skills' you are referring to. Hope you do not mind.

Perhaps I am lacking in some and do not realise.