The latest dog attack / baby death

[freelancegirl]

I don't even know why I'm posting but I've just seen some of the details in the press and feel so distressed by it. I'm almost hoping this thread goes unnoticed so I can hope to distract myself and not think about it. It's horrific though and I don't think I'll easily get it out of my mind.

It's awful, they will never forgive themselves. Dogs, no matter how friendly, really can't be left alone with babies and small children. Even small dogs can do damage if they attack or even are playful and it goes wrong.

I just can't understand why people don't get that dogs can't be trusted with children, no matter how gentle and loving they are. They can't know a newborn and their responses are entirely unpredictable.

Sadly there are people in my extended family who are so pig ignorant that they refused my requests that the dogs aren't around if we see them with the DCs. Two aunts and my GRANDMOTHER refused so I simply don't see them anymore. They think because that they're such 'cute' little terriers they can't pose any threat, when in actual fact one of them tried to bite my cousin's DD's nose in March last year. The incident was, entirely unreasonably, blamed on the child and swept under the carpet.

Why are people so blind about their dogs? I grew up with a Staffie and he was a vicious little bastard despite being loved and trained, especially as he got older.

I think people are so stupid.

They see their pet dog appearing to act docile around their children. They even do stupid things like letting their dog retrieve something from their mouth and because the dog doesn't act aggressively they assume that their dog will not ever act aggressively.

No family deserve to go through what this family are going through right now and my heart goes out to them but for Gods sake when will people start to exercise a degree of common sense around pets and children.

But who would get a dog from the pub? Really. Not think 'what's wrong with this animal?'. Sounds like a whim. I think dogs should be like getting a gun in the US - you apply then have a waiting period.

There was a woman on the radio from the kennel club this morning. She said that a dog will act on instinct and a baby sounds like an injured animal. That is so chilling for anyone with a baby.

Dog's should be licensed - to show a level of skill needed to look after them.

Babies should be licensed - same as above, way to many stupid people having babies and not looking after them correctly.

The thing is though, most dog owners do think they are exercising common sense in everyday interactions between dogs and children.

The owner of the dog I mentioned above denies that it would have lunged at a child unprovoked, and has said the child must have leaned on it or similar (actually that's no justification anyway). However my cousin, the girl's mother was in the room (my aunt wasn't) and she simply walked past the dog.

'Common sense' according to the other aunt includes playing with a baby and a squeaky toy on the floor in the presence of the dog, and giving pre-schoolers crisps and sweets while the dogs run around unsupervised. Fucking insane.

My dog (aside from a recent illness where he did bite me!) is generally really good and a fairly small cocker spaniel...

But I have a 3 year old and an 8 month old so you just can't trust them. I make sure they're not alone together, I don't let him have toys if they're around, and I keep them away when he's eating.

If we have friends with DC over, I put him in the laundry room (where one of his beds are) while they play.

I wish everyone would do this.

We've had to stop going to an aunts house because her absolutely massive dogs scare me to death, let alone my children.

I always feel like I'm made out to be a bit of a stick in the mud with friends who have a staffie/lab cross as I don't want ds (now 18 months but known this couple since he was born and they have same age child) to be near him but I've seen the dog be aggressive to other dogs although they insist he's not like that with people, despite the fact he always barks and lunges at me. It's beside the point though, as you've all said too,isn't it as ANY dog can get pissed off and do damage.

any dog can kill a baby - Jack Russells have done it.

leave a dog alone with a child and it can happen. This is the point that needs to be made. Doesn't matter what kind of dog, what its temperament is like - people need to be taught that the dog needs to be kept away.

The Jack Russell incident was local to us, happened a couple of months before the near-miss happened, was widely reported shortly afterwards but made no difference to their attitudes. They are convinced that their dogs are harmless, as many dog owners are I think.

And don't get me started on the number of posts I see on the local FB selling sites about dogs - often Staffies it seems - that have gone missing and are wandering about completely unrestrained.

The way it's being reported is odd. Why I posted in the first place was because the initial details had really shocked me - with reports of what the mother had said about the dog, I don't even want to repeat this but, having 'eaten the baby's head'. Now reports are not mentioning this and are implying it's more inconclusive until the postmortem results come back.

To be honest I expected posts on here being more defensive saying that, as on a thread after the other recent dog incident, about more children clearly being killed in cars etc than by dogs but I'm glad we are accepting that's not the same thing.

I also feel for the parents of course. Through my work I've spoken to a lot of people at times about these sort of things and there are so many who say my dog is a big softy and wouldn't hurt a fly. But then, albeit a small minority, who say I thought the same until xxxx happened. Personally I just couldn't take the chance.

It's a separate issue but why is it always Staffies that are off leads in the street? I just don't get it. Discounting youfs who think it looks hard I see so many other people who look normal and sensible and have such a dog off a lead in the street. Rarely do I see a friendly lab off a lead unless in the park. It's odd.

My friendly dog is always on the lead in the street because he's stupid and would run in front of a car to say hello to someone on the other side. Well trained Staffies tend to have better recall and stick closely to their owners, but I strongly believe that all dogs should be on leads apart from in parks/fields with no livestock etc. It is a separate issue but part of the wider issue of dog ownership requiring legislation.

Every time something like this happens it upsets me so much, so tragic and so preventable

I have big dogs and I have young children. My dogs are fantastic, so well behaved, so gentle, so good with the children and I am sure they would never ever hurt them no matter what. But I will still never take that risk because there is just no need to and I cannot risk being wrong about it because the consequences are just too severe

I see a lot of people saying they would never leave their dog alone with a young child.

But there is nothing in this story that says they left the child and dog alone, is there? The dog could have done this right in front of the parents for all we know. A dog could do a lot of damage even in the time it takes to get across the room and pull the dog off the child.

I am actually quite nervous about having my toddler DD around my sister's dog (similar breed to this, Northern Inuit) even if we are all in the room. The dog is lovely, but if she should suddenly turn for some reason, it would be too late, even if we were right there.

What do dog owners think about this? What could you do if the dog suddenly attacked while you were in the room?

I think if everyone went back to calling 'staffies' Staffordshire Bull Terriers and 'rotties' Rottweilers that might help. It's no good having a cute name for a dog that has the capacity to kill a child.

Healthy well adjusted dogs don't suddenly just attack children...they don't.

Dogs with behavioural issues or a health problem that would cause a sudden behavioural issue will, but dogs don't just turn.

Minor bites usually happen either because children are allowed to behave in a way they shouldn't and dogs feel the need to defend themselves or because dogs are allowed to behave in a way they shouldn't and haven't been trained to be around children.

But when it's a full blown attack - there's always something else going on...the dog has a history of abuse, or has previously shown worrying behaviour towards people that hasn't been dealt with or managed and rarely a medical problem will cause a normally gentle dog to act completely out of character.

You never read of a well trained, well looked after dog who's lived with a family for years attacking someone like this, there's always a previous history of abyss and neglect, a current unsuitable owner or a build up of incidents that haven't ever been dealt with.

In this case neighbours have said that they were told the dog had previously been mistreated, it hasn't been there long and was bought in a pub with no idea of what it was like. It's way way more likely that its something to do with its previous life than that the dog was fine and then just suddenly wasn't.

I'm so torn with all of this.
I have a professional view (vet hospital employee). A personal view and and personal experience. Before me and DH were married we rescued a female SBT cross, crossed with what we don't know but she was the size of a small Labrador. For the first two months she was an absolute angel, bit over excited and jumped up a lot but seemed very sweet in nature. One day she whilst outside the local convenience shop she started lunging and barking at a lady.
I'll admit it put the willies up me and immediately got a behaviourist to help put boundaries in place and what to do to keep her mentally active. Dog came to work with me, but this became impossible, she took dislikes to some staff and barked a lot. At the same she she developed a skin complaint (an allergy she was on long term mess for). Anyway, we managed her in situations until we needed to move back to my parents' house. It was a nightmare, they were having lots of work done and she was vocally aggressive to the workmen (all whilst still trying to 'train' her). One day, I was at work and mum said to leave the dog at home and her friend came over, she got Dog as her friend loves them and Dog lunged, thankfully didn't make contact.
I was pregnant at this point, and somewhat terrified as what was going to happen. We moved to our new house with Dog and she was still overly excited, barked if the postman farted 3 streets away etc. My dd was born and Dog was great, NEVER showed displeasure towards her. And I NEVER NEVER NEVER allowed Dog to be in closer teach to dd than me. It I needed to loo and dd was asleep in her Moses basket, Dog came with me. If I had visitors Dog went in her crate. We managed like this until dd was 14 months, until Dog tried to snap at me in front of a work colleague who popped over to say hi. She was gob smacked and I said what I thought I'd never say 'I think she needs to be put down.' Even writing this I'm in floods of tears. But I had to do what was right by my dd. Dog never made contact with her teeth or actually hurt anyone. But she did try. I couldn't rehome her as she had an expensive skin complaint, and I had a moral obligation to not pass behavioural issues to someone else. I spoke at great lengths to other colleagues and a couple of dog behaviour therapists and everyone agreed it was the right thing to do. Dog didn't know any different, they have no thought process beyond the here and now. I was heart broken, still am by it. But I know I did what was right by my dd and by Dog. A vet at work said to me "Better Dog goes now whilst everyone still has love in their hearts, than her hurting someone and leaving the world resented and hated."
I'm sorry this is so long winded, but I've never shared this publicly before and it's so topical. I truly believe she wouldn't have hurt a hair on dd's head but is the risk ever worth it? Professionally speaking, a good vet wouldn't judge anyone for putting a human life before an animal's. It just speaks sense, doesn't it?
And personally, my opinion would be to NEVER under any circumstance, regardless of the nature of the dog leave them unattended with any child, or within easier reach of a baby/toddler than you.

I also feel that some humans are over valuing the life of an animal. I don't mean this to sound as cold hearted as it does, but there surely needs to be some perspective?

What I mean is, if a dog has been rehomed numerous times for poor behaviour (might be too much inbreeding/OCD etc) surely the kindest thing to do would be to release the animal from its mental stress. They won't be living, just existing.
I don't really want this to come across as inflammatory or sensationalist and I know I'm going to get a lot flack for what I've said (possibly even sacked, if anyone knows me, they'll know this post is me).

It's just all so sad, thoughts and prayers with every family having suffered any loss in relation to this.

atbeckandcall. What a brave post and you obviously made the right heartrending decision.

No flack, atbeckandcall. Common bloody sense.

You went over and beyond to help this animal, but sadly, some idiot had already got to it and damaged her beyond help. She would most likely have bitten someone sooner or later - and if you were luck it would have been a minor nip to an adult, not ripping the face of a small child.

As my sister (dog handler extraordinaire) says 'any bitch will fight to the death'. Her dogs are treated like dogs (not little furry people) and are exceptionally well behaved (all rescue animals). None have ever chased or bitten anyone, not been aggressive in any way. She would never leave a child alone with one of her dogs. They are farm dogs and are around livestock. If DS wants to take one for a walk (and he is 9 now, and been around them all his life) the dog has to have a muzzle on.

I always tell DS that dogs are like people - some are nice, some are nasty and some just got out of the basket on the wrong side that day (or feel unwell, so are grumpy).

I think there are very very stupid people around who buy or obtain a dog in what they think is their 'own' image'. They are as thick as anything (sorry but I am really angry!) and dont exercise the dog properly. That teeanger last year was killed by a pack of dogs in a tiny house where their stupid stupid owner clearly couldnt look after them. They had gone stir crazy. Someone correct me if I am wrong but she was also registered disabled!!! What on earth was she thinking of.

I have a large breed and have a big house and a large garden. We take her for walks regardless of the weather.

If it was me I would ban dogs from flats (I know but we must do something!) or for certain breeds (including my own) you need to apply for a licence. FGS - if you lived in a flat and your dog was about to spend a penny or throw up there is literally no where to go if you are three floors up. Sorry - but dogs are not suitable for a flat.

If we dont start shaking things up things will just carry on as they are.

Not sure how relevant 'cute name's are to this latest incident? The dog that killed the baby was neither a SBT or a rottie, is their a cutsy name for Alaskan Malamutes?

There not their, damn predictive text! I own a dog, a so called dangerous breed, I do think there needs to be some way of controlling dog ownership but not sure how this would work in reality?

It will upset some people but I would do the following:

1. License for big dogs (not just rotties, SBT etc). ALL big dogs.
2. No dogs allowed to live in a flat (tin hat at the ready)
3. In social housing (I know another tin hat!) you have to prove that you are capable of owning a dog and will sign an agreement taking responsibility to pay for any damage. Social housing is easier to police but for the foolish who are house owners a licence should cover it.

There are some very stupid people around but who takes a dog from a pub (!!) with young children.

Also, everyone is responsible for their own kids treating dogs with respect. No poking and teasing. If one of my children EVER did that to a dog I would come down really hard on them.