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I am very confused - Lord Rennard

131 replies

Domus · 20/01/2014 11:39

here

If he did what he's accused of, far more action than making him apologise is required.

If he didn't, why on earth does he need to apologise?

The current stance by Clegg and others is ridiculous? Or is it me? I'm not surprised he won't apologise as (legally) he's not guilty of anything. Surely if he makes any kind of meaningful apology that would really implicate him. (i.e. would be an admission of guilt) I'm sure no-one's going to be happy with an I'm sorry if I was misunderstood type of apology.

If "they" think he's guilty of something he needs to apologise for why are they entertaining having back at all?

Apologies if there are other threads-I did look!

OP posts:
Lazyjaney · 21/01/2014 21:01

"Lazeyjaney as others have said, there is evidence - the complaints from the women is evidence. The issue is the standard of proof"

And what do you think happens to the veracity of the evidence in a civil case if, instead of denying it he instead apologises for what he did? (remember, this evidence consists of allegations, with no proof, at present).

Yes, that's right, it makes it more likely he can be convicted as the balance of proof is lower in a civil case, and the defendant apologizing gives the prosecution case a huge leg up.

No lawyer is going to let their client apologise in this situation.

Especially as, the way things now are, he is not guilty so any attempt to nail him opens the LibDems up for a countersuit. Why would anyone give that position up without cast iron guarantees?

FloraFox · 21/01/2014 21:21

Lazeyjaney I'm not sure what you mean by the "veracity of the evidence". It's not clear what Rennard's defence was so it's impossible to say what the impact of an apology would be and whether it would support the credibility of the women's testimony. Worded one way it might, worded another, it might not.

What do you mean by "no proof"? Although we don't know all the details, the women's testimony if believed and if there is no reasonable defence, is proof and is capable of being proof either to the civil or criminal standard.

Also, people are not "convicted" in civil cases and there is no "prosecution".

What is clear is that Webster said the allegations were credible and although the criminal standard of proof was not met (not sure why that was the standard chosen anyway) Rennard should apologise. It's clear Rennard's attempts to justify his refusal to apologise by throwing up pseudo-legal nonsense is working.

I'm actually not bothered one way or the other whether Rennard apologises. This whole debacle and the LibDems' treatment of these women have shone a very harsh and bright light on LibDems' attitudes towards women in general.

liberalmess · 21/01/2014 21:33

Both Susan and Alison Smith have said they had no intention of taking legal action.

From what I know, none of them had any interest in legal action - they could have gone down that route initially had they wished.

The others are not stating either way since he's now threatening - but there was never any discussion of civil actions before the last few days.

He could have put something together that was apologetic and yet not incriminating had he wished to. Indeed the women would have not had much support had they gone on to have a civil case following an apology.

None of this has ever been about 'winning' - it's about exposing and hopefully changing dinosaur attitudes with the Party, within politics and in the wider world.

No-one is saying that men can't show interest in a woman - but there is a time and a place, and that time and place is not when you are Chief Exec and Director of Campaigns and in what is YOUR work environment even if it isn't that of the people you are associating with.

Why was Rennard so powerful? He was a legend within the Party, credited with inventing pavement politics and masterminding a string of by-election successes. Many, many people owed their careers to him.

Add to that being in charge of the purse-strings where campaign funds were concerned - he was directly in charge of allocation, and of deciding who got a bash at a winnable seat and he had immense power, far more than any Leader.

On top of that, he was Chief Exec. He surrounded himself with a load of yes men and anyone who rocked the boat was out.

Finally, if you wanted to make a complaint about something, he was basically the person you made the complaint to. Fabulous...

MillyMollyMama · 21/01/2014 21:34

I think what it has really shown is that the Lib Dems have a disciplinary policy that requires such a high level of proof (ie one that will stand up in Court) it is unworkable and therefore useless. In a normal workplace it should be perfectly possible to investigate the behaviour of an individual if it has been upsetting and inappropriate, without it being criminal. Bullying is frequently not a criminal offence, but it is a disciplinary one. I don't think the Lib Dems do not support women because a similar issue could have arisen with men, in that the disciplinary procedures would be unworkable. As the disciplinary procedures are not fit for purpose, the Lib Dems are searching for compromises in asking for an apology. In a normal workplace disciplinary procedure he could, for example, have been given a warning without the need for the level of proof needed in a court case. This is more to do with employment policies than political policies.

Fridayschild · 21/01/2014 21:47

MMM, a political party isn't like a normal workplace. There are people working but there are also volunteers. It's not always clear who's who. And commercial workplaces place less stress on democracy than the Liberal Democrats. Democracy has its moments - Clegg was able to go into coalition negotiations knowing he had the backing of the party in a way that Cameron did not. Cameron only had the backing of the MPs.

I'm really impressed with Clegg's stance on this. I think there are women up and down the country who have had to endure "a hand on the leg through clothing" who would really like that sort of behaviour stopped. I didn't like it myself in my twenties. I'd really like my nieces never to have to experience it. Backing Clegg all the way here.

liberalmess · 21/01/2014 21:51

Just a shame he had to be forced to do that and couldn't have taken the appropriate steps 6 years ago when huge rows were going on behind the scenes about it and he was hoping it could all be covered up.

FloraFox · 21/01/2014 21:55

I don't think the Lib Dems do not support women because a similar issue could have arisen with men, in that the disciplinary procedures would be unworkable.

This is the problem with a formalistic approach to women's issues. It is very evident that the policies have not supported women because women were trying to come forward for years and were rebuffed in ways described by some commenters as Kafkaesque when it came to applying the complaints process. This was not happening to men. It's false neutrality to say that because the policy did not expressly apply differently to men and women, the Lib Dems support women. Given the appalling statistics for successful prosecution of rape cases, most rapists would successfully defend themselves in a LibDem disciplinary process. It's extraordinary that this is the standard of proof applied to this process.

The Lib Dems, through their formal processes and informal party politics have not supported women.

wetaugust · 21/01/2014 21:59

No party can tie themselves in knots quite like the LibDems can.Grin

edamsavestheday · 21/01/2014 22:12

agree, Flora, very strong post.

MillyMollyMama · 21/01/2014 22:18

Flora. The problems are a lack of a proper disciplinary policy! This applies to men and women, not just women. Obviously it is the women who have not been supported here but men could also have problems coming forward and not having any action taken. Bullying, for example happens to both men and women and is a matter for disciplinary action.

Also, Friday, just because people are volunteers does not mean they should not have the benefit of a disciplinary policy and clear rules in their place of volunteering. Political parties are only different because they choose to work outside the normal rules of the workplace. They do not have to. They could have a workable robust policy like anyone else. Instead they have a policy no other reasonable entitity would ever consider because workplace misdemeanors are rarely investigated forensically or required to produce the evidence to satisfy a Court. This is why there are disciplinary policies. They are tailored to the individual "employer" not a court.

FloraFox · 21/01/2014 22:55

MMM if you read Rennard's statement, it appears there very much is a disciplinary policy and the LibDems not following it is likely to be the basis of his law suit (if he brings one). I can see that if you look at this issue through a liberal lens, you will not see an equality issue. Hence the problem.

Lazyjaney · 22/01/2014 07:49

"Both Susan and Alison Smith have said they had no intention of taking legal action"

One of the others hasn't ruled it out, no lawyer will let their client apologise in those circumstances, this isn't hard to grasp.

Rennard is in a strong legal position, he won't jeopardise it. As I predicted, he is threatening to counter sue, which in essence is threatening to pull out the dirty laundry while taking them to the cleaners.

Lazyjaney · 22/01/2014 08:47

"Lazeyjaney I'm not sure what you mean by the "veracity of the evidence"

I think your next 4 paragraphs of thesaurical nitpicking rather showed you did :)

However, you do still (wilfully?) miss the fundamental issue, which is that accusation is not proof.

iMO Webster was a complete idiot to not realise what a ruckus he would cause. He's managed to create a major sex scandal, without any sex.

Onefewernow · 22/01/2014 09:37

Lazeyjane, what this reveals then is that Rennard doesn't give a shit about his party. Because sitting there in a so called "strong position" whilst the rest of us voters tut in disgust at what he got away with, is undoing all the political work he ever did earlier.

The least he could do is resign without admitting guilt, to calm the storm.

columngollum · 22/01/2014 11:16

The whole thing sounds like a load of guff to me.

If one of the women thought she had enough evidence to mount a civil action why hasn't she done it? There's nothing like fear of losing to stop a good court case going ahead, is there.

Talk is cheap.

I wish Rennard would hurry up and slap a writ on Clegg's silly head. Time's a wastin...

AngelaDaviesHair · 22/01/2014 12:54

Polly Toynbee's article in The Guardian today is very good, I think:

What are the women whingeing about? If a grown woman can't handle a hand on her knee, she's probably not fit for the rough and tumble of the workplace. Men do try it on, but surely the women could politely tell the portly peer with the wandering hands that they're not interested. Why quite such a fuss when nothing much actually happened? Either these four women are over-sensitive or else they must be part of some conspiracy.

That's the gist of one side of the argument among Lib Dem peers who cheered Lord Rennard last week, two to one in his favour. Now the stand-off has been put back on ice: another inquiry and a disciplinary procedure to see if he brought the party into disrepute by refusing to apologise. He says he can't, for fear of being sued. Others say Nick Clegg should have sat him down and cobbled together one of those non-apologies that go "Sorry if some people have taken offence". But with blood boiling on both sides, this only freezes the dilemma. The party is in disrepute.

One MEP said Rennard's behaviour was no different to the bottom-pinching Italian men of yore. But most Rennard defenders adopt the kind of "common sense" attitude that has dogged every attempt to improve women's position since the suffragettes. Remember David Cameron's patronising "Calm down, dear" – there it was again in Clegg's complaint today that the argument around Rennard was "shrill". Such mild put-downs are harder to confront than full-frontal misogyny.

But these cases are deadly: Rennard's reputation is shot, but his four women accusers stand disbelieved, with their claims not "beyond reasonable doubt". With QC Alistair Webster's report being secret, all we are left with is the impression that one man's evidence seems to have carried more weight than four women complainants, sharia style.

For those who had never heard of Lord Rennard, in the teacup of the Lib Dem party he is a storming figure. Magician of Lib Dem byelection victories, many senior figures owe their selection, election or preferment to him. Few forget the whisker-thin Clegg-Huhne leadership contest when the Christmas post delayed the postal ballots. Those votes were heavily pro-Huhne, but the Clegg side demanded they be ignored: Rennard adjudicated in Clegg's favour.

So Rennard had immense power over the four women aspiring to be Lib Dem candidates. If he did what they claim, then surely only that power would have given this physically unprepossessing man the nerve to try his luck with younger more attractive women. Did an implied "come up and see my target seat" let a political supremo make passes at women well out of his league – or did they make it up and risk all for mischief?

Sexual harassment is all about power. When that phrase first flew across the Atlantic, we didn't know how to pronounce it: harassment or harassment? Nor did we know how bad it had to be before it counted, along the continuum all the way to rape. Back then groping, pinching and outright sexual threats were commonplace. New girls – and "girls" we were – were warned of the worst leches, that it was not safe to be alone in their offices. But no one complained because no one would listen, and it would mark you down as trouble and no fun. In a 1980s newsroom where I was the only woman editor, other women came to me wondering what to do about an editor who promoted via his bedroom and demoted those who refused. A man with power at work over a woman can never have a fair and equal relationship: how will it end, what happens to her if they break up? Whose job is at risk? Never his.

Costly employment tribunal cases taken by brave women may make men more circumspect. As cases are now unearthed from yesteryear, some complain they're from another age, another culture: if so, any culture change is only because some women dare to call out their abusers. But read the evidence from the Everyday Sexism Project and the change looks cosmetic, with more than 10,000 complaints about workplace harassment received last year – still so insidious, with victims so vulnerable.

How will women in politics feel on hearing these four complainants only suffered "behaviour that violates their personal space and autonomy"? Westminster remains a man's palace, its 22% women MPs too few to tip the balance. Neither Tories nor Lib Dems learn from Labour that the only way women break past men's barricades is with women-only shortlists and quotas. Douglas Hurd voiced what both parties think when he said last week that things are "slightly ludicrous" when parties think "there ought to be more women in this or that sphere of our life".

Tory politicians' use and abuse of women subordinates is well documented. The Lib Dems were always bad on women: around Jeremy Thorpe was a curious closet-gay coterie unwelcoming to women. Oddly, that unfriendly-to-women aura remained in not-gay David Steel's milieu. Lib Dem women's voices are few, with no uprising over this. Labour may promote more women, but more than one cabinet minister needed his women staff protected from slobbery kisses and aggressive fumblings.

Power may be an aphrodisiac, but it certainly gives otherwise unappealing men the chutzpah to imagine so. Touching up women at work is a way to exert power, often an act of aggression to keep them in their place: underneath it all, women's realm is the bedroom. The politics of sex are too difficult to navigate, men complain. At work, as at home, the only etiquette question is who has the power. And what women hear again from the Lib Dems is, "Not you."

AngelaDaviesHair · 22/01/2014 12:58

Oh, and what are the Lib Dems doing to reform their structure so that no one ever has as much power as Rennard did?

They can remove him from post, but if all that happens is another man (it will be a man) is put in the same position of untrammelled power, then at some point one of those successors will transgress in this or some other way and the entire mess is replayed.

checkmates · 22/01/2014 13:25

The poroblem was he was the most senior official in the party. And they were his employees.

columngollum · 22/01/2014 14:36

If Tonybee's article was more about Rennard's actual behaviour and less of a history lesson/mass generalisation then I might be interested.

AngelaDaviesHair · 22/01/2014 16:13

Bit harsh. She's extrapolating from the Rennard case to make general points about sexual harassment, which is fair enough I think.

AnywhereOverTheRainbow · 22/01/2014 16:25

columngollum

If one of the women thought she had enough evidence to mount a civil action why hasn't she done it?

Would you? It could be expensive and after their evidence was already 'binned' in previous court proceedings, well... I wouldn't risk years of my life and thousands of pounds to try and win a lawsuit!

I guess real life is more important than winning a lawsuit against a sexual pervert who was once her powerful boss.

I just can't understand how voters can be happy with certain LibDems who feel entitled whatever they like to do.
They won't get my vote for sure, ever.

Lazyjaney · 22/01/2014 17:05

"Lazeyjane, what this reveals then is that Rennard doesn't give a shit about his party"

I read it that he gives a bigger shit about saving his skin. I suspect he of all people knows the party is toast for a few years.

"The least he could do is resign without admitting guilt, to calm the storm"

An ambitious politico falling on his own sword.....that's a novel idea :)

FloraFox · 22/01/2014 22:07

Lazeyjaney you are mistaking hubris and bullying for a strong legal position. They are not the same.

We don't even know what "charge" Webster was considering. That he was talking of "intent" suggests something akin to a criminal charge rather than a civil case for assault or workplace harassment. In the latter case, intent has much less significance. Thanks for trying to point out what you think the fundamental issue is. I disagree.

Lazyjaney · 23/01/2014 07:08

^^
I have no doubt there is hubris and bullying behaviour and more besides, but if Cleggers and Co were in a stronger legal position they wouldn't be in the mess they are now.

LineRunner · 23/01/2014 09:55

Front page of the Daily Mail, and in every other paper and on every news channel - another Lib Dem suspended from the Party, this one over allegations of sexual assault.

The problem for Clegg is that the alleged victim, a very vulnerable woman, wrote to him years ago to complain.