Uganda passes anti-gay and anti-pornography bills

[omuwalamulungi]

Really hacked off with my adopted nation this morning, to say the least.

Story at:

Daily Monitor

BBC

The president still needs to agree and there is a lot of international pressure on him but it's going to happen. Anti-pornography bill would extend to women wearing mini skirts in public.

You'd laugh, except these people genuinely think wearing a skirt is inviting rape, or that homosexual men recruit children.

This is what I wrote minus the sweary word before it gets deleted...

I'm going to have to hide this I think, it'll just wind me up, fucking religious bigots are the same whichever religion they practise.

But I will just say a grovelling thankyou to law7899 for being so magnanimous in affording people like my gay son Human rights, as she so obviously doesn't think they should have them.

Lots of error here Tara,

1. I pmed you because I clicked the wrong button
2. You know little of my mind, whereas your language is very plain to see
3. I am very aware of the Court Case with the B and B example. I agree with the Court Ruling - so why would you think otherwise?
4. Your intolerance beggars belief. I am perfectly entitled to an opinion which is equally valid to yours however different to your own. What made you think I was discriminating?
5. You are very quick to come to wrong conclusions.

Great debate - keep it up.

Dear Lady Isabella,
Your aggression is a worry. Now let's look at the word homophobia.
Homo- = same as
Phobia- a fear

I was totally unaware that I lived in fear of homosexuals. I neither live in fear of them or hate them. Again this is another word adopted by the media to bash people who happen to have a very different view.
Swearing and bad language is never condoned on the internet. You are getting in a muddle.
Best wishes and simply loving the debate.

The etymology of 'Homophobia' is completely irrelevant. Thankfully, these days, the 'opinion' that being gay is wrong is being challenged. I used to hold to such muddle headed and homophobic views myself, largely as a result of religious conditioning. I was wrong, and so are you.

Using ancient language roots, when the phrase was invented not very long ago at the time when homosexuality was seen as a mental illness and therefore people used the language of oppressors to fight against them, shows that you do not have an understanding of the history or actual meaning of the word.

Terrific has the same roots as terrified, but they now do not mean the same thing and to suggest that things can only mean what their ancient roots say is ridiculous.

You may not see what you are doing as hate, but refusing to recognise people as valid and 'normal' as you are and backing a violent law (that is also backed by American extremists - do you really want to be in the same camp) is nothing short of hate. And next time you want to use your religion to hide it, you may want to check what part it came from and the system it is in (shrimp is called an abomination far more times, and by the Judaic laws you are clinging to, no Gentile marriage is valid). I've studied Abrahamic texts for decades, and you're just spouting nonsense to back your prejudice.

Thank you for joining the debate. I suspect we are talking at cross purposes which I am sure is all my fault.
I am challenging the concept that you can be gay or be straight. My point very simply is that sexual activity is a voluntary activity. You either choose to take part or not to take part. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are practices not conditions. The media however disagrees with this view. I take the view that I have already suggested. I am perfectly entitled to my view as you are for your view. As you will see that is the perfect post-modern answer to the question
Keep up the wonderful debate.

Nope, sorry, I am an absolutist, not a post-modernist. Some things are just wrong.

Choosing to engage in sexual practice is a choice, yes, but this makes no nevermind in whether or not such sexual practice or orientation is wrong. And stop with the patronizing 'thankyou for debating' bullshit.

(Terribly sorry for swearing, but contrary to your 'opinion', swearing is perfectly acceptable on Mumsnet)

Law you do realise that what people do in the privacy of their own bedroom is fuck all to do with you? So your "Christian" opinion doesn't matter a jot.

You keep saying debate. You are aware this law and those like it put people's lives on the lines? That for people this isn't a debate but a fight to be recognized as human and valid and worthy of being recognized, a fight to live? You are backing a system that condemns people to death for love and affection and siding with extremist. It isn't post-modern, it's the fight for justice.

Yes, sexual acts are voluntary, so is making laws that dehumanize others for simply want to live and love in a way that does no harm to others.

This isn't a debate, for that you would have to recognise what is being said - like your lack of knowledge on the origins on the phrase of homophobia, your obvious lack of knowledge of Christianity and the laws you professed to cling to, and that these laws aren't just a debate - they are a system of supporting dehumanzing violence and hatred.

There's no getting around the fact that many of the organised religions use that organisation to discriminate against gay people and to pressure others to do the same.

So the way I feel about those churches is the same way I feel about an organisation that supported treating black people as subhuman.

In particular we've seen Christianity pushed onto starving people in other countries as the price of food or medicine and pressuring those countries to bring in laws that remove human rights.

The link between the homophobia and the anti-pornography was created not in this thread, but by the bigots making the new laws.

@QuietNinjaTardis
Thanks for joining the internet discussion/debate/diatribe. Yes I am quite aware that what people do in private is up to them Did I ever say it was not?
Many thanks.

Thank you for your reply. I do know where the word homophobic came from. I was being deliberately facetious making my point. Its origins are fairly new especially in the Western world. I cannot put an exact date on it but it is not old. The word gay has been loosely associated with homosexual even back in the 1960's but only in some sections of the community. Most of the language has come from the Gay rights activists in the USA sometime in the 1970's so not very old.

As for my knowledge of Christianity - how would you know about that on a message board such as this. I am fully aware of the Judaistic derivations of Marital Law especially based on Leviticus and other writings which were pretty much adopted into the early Christian Church. As for the American Extremists this is side swiping with people you disagree with. It all depends from which view point you are coming from.
As for hiding behind my religion as you put it that is always levelled at believers in a desperate attempt to win the so-called battle of ideas. You are assuming many things here. I have absolutely no reason to hide behind my faith. What on Earth would be the point of that? I have already previously stated that things are not always ideal in society and the Christian Church has to balance Doctrine with practicalities without sacrificing sincere ideals.
Many thanks.

Thank you for your reply. You are making many wrong assumptions about me. Your comment about swearing shows you live in an internet utopia where nothing that is said really matters. I was rather hoping that people male/female could engage in internet chat without having some sort of limited vocabulary to make their points. I am fully aware that in parts of the globe people suffer persecution for who they are. You may be interested to know that Christians also suffer persecution in many parts of the world as well. So I hope you will also campaign for justice in those areas as well.
Many thanks again.

I didn't chose to be gay. Nor do I practise homosexuality as you said above. No it's not a condition either, you are right about that Law. It just is what it is.....and that is normal.

And people being condemned for being gay is a terrible crime against all of humanity. I don't indoctrinate people, we don't hand out toasters for conversions and we don't carry membership cards.

People really don't give a monkeys who is gay and who is not, in general. Unfortunately there are still parts of the world where it is a crime and people die as a result. It's nothing to do with religion or beliefs. Which commandment condemns us? I missed that one.

I am fully aware of the persecution Christians suffer all over the globe for their faith. Which makes it even more that some of their number choose to persecute others for something that completely doesn't affect them. Sorry if I come across as angry - but I am. It's precisely this kind of 'I'm entitled to be bigoted' rubbish that drove me away from faith to begin with.

So you are being facetious, treating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humour?

How very Christian of you.

omu, should you still be reading this: I am entirely in agreement with your OP and your further insightful post. These laws may sound good ("anti-porn - what wrong with that?"), but you and lots of people now that they are fare more than that.
It has now been 20 years since I lived in Uganda and the Pentecostal Church then had a presence but not that same influence it seems to have now.

It is things like this that make me grateful for living in a country where there is at least a semblance of Church and State being (somewhat) separate, and yes, it confirms my belief that the extremes of any faith are dangerous, often inhumane and, the case of some Christian beliefs, not at all in keeping what the basic spirit of Christianity are.

I am sorry your thread has been derailed by narrow-minded BS.

I think you son should be proud of his heritage and learn as much about it as he can. Has he ever had a chance to visit?

It is a matter of logical conclusion that 7988 must think that it is ok for Christians to be persecuted based on beliefs that others sincerely hold, and that it would be ok for a country to pass laws compelling such persecution. Or maybe 7988 is actually a hypocrite. Who knows?

"First they came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Socialists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for me,
and there was no one left to speak for me."
(Martin Niemöller, minister who died in a concentration camp)

Replace 'homosexual' for any one of these...

Tara,
Being facetious about the exact meaning of homophobic?
My point being that it is now an overused buzzword to bash others.
Please do not judge my faith on a message board like mumsnet.
Emails and messages typed do not always convey the correct meaning as I am sure you know.
I shall certainly post on other topics in the future that have a lot of interest for me.
Best wishes to all

I am challenging the concept that you can be gay or be straight. My point very simply is that sexual activity is a voluntary activity. You either choose to take part or not to take part. Heterosexuality and homosexuality are practices not conditions.

Not sure why bothering, but that last sentence is plain wrong. That's like having the opnion that 1+1 definitely equals 4. The definition of 'sexual orientation' is that it's the thing you feel on the inside. It's attraction, emotion and feeling. I could have sex with a man but that would NOT make me heterosexual, it would make me a lesbian having sex with a man.

I could choose to only have sex with men for the rest of my life and I STILL wouldn't be straight or even bisexual. I'd still be a lesbian. End of story.

You choose whom to have sex with, but you don't choose to be sexually attracted to people in the first place

There's also NOWHERE in the Bible which says it's a sin to be homosexual (ie. to feel an attraction to someone of the same gender). The Bible says it's a sin to have sexual intercourse with someone who is the same gender as you. It doesn't say it's wrong to feel attraction in the first place. Unless the person is married or something I guess, then I'd be coveting my neighbours wife...

Which is why quite a lot of churches now say "it's fine to be gay but you have to be gay and celibate in order to be following the Bible"

Which doesn't bother me as I'm not a Christian, but I'm just making a point.

I wonder at your grasp of the English language, facetious means flippant, it means using inappropriate humour.
Homophobia is a serious issue believe it or not.
I care not one hoot about your religion but I would never persecute you or any other for it and I have not judged your 'faith' on here.

To say that using Homophobia as a buzzword to bash others is a childish and offensive response, homophobia is an issue that needs to be dealt with, to stop nasty bigotry continuing and hurting ALL our children.

Don't forget that Gay adults were all once children too.

I have not responded to your unpleasant private messages and will continue not to do so.

You can feel free to comment on any other topic on here as you wish though I notice this is the only one you have bothered with so far.

why do I get the impression law won't be returning to defend her statements? I will take further issue with the idea that the word 'homophobic' is used to 'bash others'. No more than the word 'racist' is. Racism and the oppression of gay people are both horrid, destructive things, based in irrationalities, and as such the words are used to point out bad behaviour.

I absolutely agree with everything that you have said. You have explained it much better than I did.
Thanks.

I thought that I had already explained that my private messages were sent by accident clicking wrong buttons.
As previously said before - this is my first thread that I have followed since joining the message board very recently. I shall certainly follow other threads.
However, homophobic as a word is used in the media by people defending their views against people whom they disagree with. It is of course a serious issue I have never stated otherwise. I shall certainly carry on defending the Biblical view on sexuality as the media certainly won't anymore unfortunately.