Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

It's hard to discuss Mha and local authority objectively when so much is demonised
Some of you are really stuck on demonising staff and making sinister claims

IMO,the uk mental health system is one of the most liberal and has various checks and balances to protect the individual.Placing someone under a Section requires three professionals to take a joint decision, an Approved Mental Health Professional (AMHP) and two registered doctors.Mental Health Tribunal (MHT) Mental Health Tribunals are part of the Judicial system. They are effectively a court of law. Their function is to hear appeals against detention under the MHA. They consist of a Judge, a Psychiatrist, and a specialist lay member, which is someone who has particular interest and experience in working in the mental health field. Their main purpose is:
to review the cases of detained, conditionally discharged, and supervised community treatment (SCT) patients under the Act
to direct the discharge of any patients where it thinks it appropriate
to consider applications for discharge from guardianship.

The professionals involved are
Social worker, undergrad degree or post-grad qualified.then attend post qualifying courses.supervised and professionally managed.social worker Is protected title. In England registered with Health and Care Professions Council (HCPC) and Scottish Social Services Council (SSSC).Sw employed by local authority or health trust

Psychiatrist,medically qualified doctor who has specialised in mental health after qualifying,post graduate training and supervision.registered with GMC
Employed by health trust

In scotland, mental health officer.An MHO is a specially trained social worker who has the training, education, experience and skills to work with people with a mental disorder. MHOs work for the local authorities who have legal duties under the Act.During training has to lead assessments and is closely monitored and assesse

In England amhp,allied mental health professional. Sw,OT or nurse.additional post qualifying training. During training has to lead assessments and is closely monitored and assessed

If I was a tourist or traveller on a short trip in Europe, and I became ill - mentally or physically - I would hope that the people helping me would move heaven and earth to get me home as soon as I could possibly travel safely. And for my treatment then to continue at home.

It sounds like an horrific, ongoing nightmare for the woman concerned. I cannot begin to imagine the situation in which it would be necessary for HCPs to make these sort of choices and decisions, I hope that they are genuinely able to reflect on what happened and be sure it was the right course of action.

But it does make me worried about asking for help in Essex - it seems that things can spiral out of hand very quickly.

We need a massive sea change.

We need fewer not more children removed from parents. We want relatives to be the default always if the parents cannot cope.

If she has family in Italy or a UK based father of the child the child should always go to them, never removed from close relatives.

If the person is foreign their embassy should be totally involved.

We should always try support to the mother before removal.

We should have the family courts much more open.

We should ensure every parent including the fathers has their own
independent medical/mental report

We should remember that a child in care is more likely to end up prison than university and that even a slightly inadequate parent is usually best.

RMN's can detain voluntary patients in absence of Psych without post reg training under Section 5 (4)

Section 5(4)

• Compulsory detention in hospital for up to 6 hours for a Mental Health Act assessment
• Requires one nurse recommendation (RMN, RMNH, or SEN working in the speciality).
• The detention has an immediate effect from the nurse stating to the patient that they are on a section 5(4)
• Patient must already be an in-patient

The RMN qualification bestows this legal power regardless of how experienced/post reg you are.

My trust frowns upon us using it as basically it is an admission that the Docs haven't been answering their bleeps .

As I said on the other thread (and always with the proviso that sometimes things do go wrong and there are abuses of power), the foetus as it was had no legal status until it was born, so the only legal reason for doing a CS in these circumstances would be to save the life of the mother. It could be that while under sedation she began bleeding heavily (possibly placental abruption?) meaning that they had no time to wait for the drugs to wear off in order to seek consent.

I can totally understand why the mother feels that she was knocked out and the baby ripped from her (and there are plenty of mothers whose children were born in "twilight births" in the 1950s who feel the same I daresay), but I do feel that involving that odious man is only going to confuse her further. Her MH must be very fragile at the moment.

Poor woman and poor baby.

You see cakes,there a lot of ifs in your post
If fit to travel?the assessment would be of mental state and how to safely treat
There's a whole lot of demonising in absence of fact.Essex LA like all LA has to act under statutory legislation.they can't,despite what some here assert,act out with legislative framework

scottishmummy, there are a lot of qualified people, but a lot of qualified people used to give lobotomoes before they were outlawed. We have to have the right to ask questions about what is happening when we read shocking stories in our newspapers.

How did our system allow a situation where Jimmy Savile was given a senior position in one of the top mental hospitals in the country?

Is the regulation up to scratch? Should there be a bit more scrutiny and questioning of some of the decisions made?

"Disgraced entertainer Jimmy Savile was given a key position running Broadmoor and personally selected managers , it was claimed last night.

A former manager claimed that politicians and civil servants thought he was the ‘bee’s knees’ and appointed him to a task force to run the hospital in 1988.

The Top Of The Pops presenter has since been unmasked as one of Britain’s most prolific sex offenders, but was ‘given the keys’ to Broadmoor."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478143/Jimmy-Savile-given-key-position-Broadmoor-personally-selected-hospitals-bosses.html

This woman had a panic attack and that may have involved her being a harm to herself and her baby and so sectioning may have been the correct action as AndyWarhiol has said. But it is what happened afterwards that is shocking and which shocked the High Court in Rome.

saragossa- you say that but as soon as Peter Connolly, Hamzah Khan or Victoria Climbié happens everyone clamours for more children to be removed, for more adoptions, for more state intervention.

SS are working to sort out shit parenting, on a legal knife edge at all times of civil liberties and child protection. By definition they are dealing with some of the most difficult and unpredictable people in society. Is it any wonder that sometimes they get it wrong?

I admire SW to the ends of the earth for managing to stay in their jobs. Only people with utter tenacity and sheer determination to be the one potential person in a child's life who doesn't just walk on by could hack it in that job. I think they do an amazing job in horrendous circumstance, day in, day out.

Any system with humans in it is flawed,as humans are themselves flawed
Saville investigation has exposed dreadful systemic and individual failings Obviously systems,processes try to work for best practice. Least restrictive option

'Any system with humans in it is flawed,as humans are themselves flawed'

Yes, that is why we must have more openness and transparency so that we can identify areas where the systems and procedures and checks may be going wrong.

Completely agree,transparency and discussion of process is necessary and should be encouraged
The real difficulty is getting past the hysteria and demonising of professionals
the masked amhp us a good blog there's plenty good stuff online,not just the hysterical conspiracy theorists

Yes, but it is chicken and egg.
The worries and demonising occur because of the secrecy.
If more information was out in the open, if senior officials were questioned in parliamentary committees and if people who believe injustices have been committed were asked to give their experiences, then the worries would decrease because understanding would increase.

this is horrific it really is however we have not the facts a judge would have needed to give a court order the mother may have been trying to harm her unborn child or herself I do not think SS snatch children from the womb often, poor woman though it is so very sad

I couldn't agree more with scottishmummy about how liberal our mental health system is compared to most others - which isn't to say that it's perfect. Over the years, I've dealt with many concerned relatives whose loved ones are are ill but refusing treatment who want them to be sectioned so that they can get treatment and get really angry about how ill you need to be to get sectioned. They are genuinely astonished at how high the bar is set.
I've had patients who have gone abroad and relapsed and ended up in a psychiatric hospital and some of the stories are horrific - and I'm talking European countries here, not developing ones.
The UK is the only country that doesn't use mechanical restraints such as straitjackets and that includes progressive countries such as the Scandinavian ones.
There is so much scrutiny surrounding the Mental Health Act, there really is although some people seem determined not to hear that.

I've seen some right old rot trotted out as if fact.for some they're so rooted to conspiracy and dark plots that they have inability to discuss this subject objectively

I agree with your Scottishmummy conspiracy and what not do not make a discussion

oh meant to add we do not need to know the ins and outs of this poor womans illness her privacy and dignity is important

Mha in uk is one of most liberal in world and has protection not afforded elsewhere
Use of physical restraints eg straps is illegal.this isn't case elsewhere
Mh tribunal and access to advocates,there are numerous attempt to introduce check and balance

"saragossa- you say that but as soon as Peter Connolly, Hamzah Khan or Victoria Climbié happens everyone clamours for more children to be removed, for more adoptions, for more state intervention. "

Well I don't. I don't like the move to more adoption either.

The UK does have a better system than many countries and good social workers - no one disputes that but my points listed above would improve things further. I also don't like removal of children because of non physical abuse either. it is so easy to be abused as a ground.

The bottom line is involve social workers and the police in your family life at your peril. Steer well clear.

If we had had more open court and published judgments those involved in the system on a day to day basis and the judges could help to convince the public that both sides have a fair hearing, all relatives including extended family have lots of notice and lots of time to produce their own reports and be represented in the court (if indeed that does happen) and so we can check that the decisions which say babies born abroad where the courts have said they cannot be removed back to the UK are not illegally returned to the UK by social services.

i have seen a few children removed into temp foster care for their own safety and their parents never put a finger on them

And you know this by accessing case records or the parents told you?

'we do not need to know the ins and outs of this poor womans illness her privacy and dignity is important'

Privacy is the least of her concerns, she has gone to the High Court in Rome. The more publicity and help she gets the more chance there is that she may get her child back.

Has anyone ever heard Frank Bruno talk about how he was sectioned and about the drugs that were used on him? There is an interview with him on Irish TV on youtube somewhere, but I can't find it.

Mr Bruno,has also spoken warmly and in praise of the staff who treated him
He campaigns fir anti-stigma and better understanding of mental health
Mr Bruno was appallingly treated by print media,did you omit to mention that

"saragossa- you say that but as soon as Peter Connolly, Hamzah Khan or Victoria Climbié happens everyone clamours for more children to be removed, for more adoptions, for more state intervention. "

Well I don't. I don't like the move to more adoption either.

Exactly, saragossa, no one says we need more adoption, they say why didn't social services visit poor Hamzah more. Why was it so long before a PCSO, I think it was, entered the house? People ask what were the social services doing, they don't demand more adoptions.