Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

Just with regard to the issue of expert reports in care proceedings and who pays for them - answer is the tax payer mostly through the parties publicly funded certificates. One expert is jointly instructed by all and the costs split equally between parties - so in case involving two parents and two children, the LA pay 1/5.

Yet JH repeats that experts are simply in the pay of the LA and write what LA want or don't get instructed again. This is a lie. I have had many expert reports which went against the LA. These experts have no shortage of work as all parents reps want to instruct them.

Jesus christ i cannot believe. I have read the transcript. This is forced adoption, nothing less..

Thanks for posting link to judgment. Very interesting and informative.

Not that it will make a shred of difference to the conspiracy theorists however. They are quite free from the shackles of logic and reason.

Thanks whistleblower for proving my point for me.

@Maryz good posts! The adoption process you described in one of your posts was correct, Italy has a similar horrible process for adoptions. In fact, it is very difficult for an Italian couple to adopt an Italian child.
Many of the Italian children end up staying in a foster care home forever (the translation from Italian would be orphanage, I know it sounds terrible!).

The child is NOT an Italian citizen if born in another country. Not automatically. You need to file the papers to the embassy, both parents. Am I wrong or the father is not even Italian? :/

If you are a child of an Italian couple, living in UK, automatically you have British citizenship. A child of a Italian friend, married to an Italian man, both here for less than three years, has a 2 year son who was born here.
Her son HAS British citizenship, I am 200% sure about it (saw the papers!).
Therefore, who wrote above that you need a 5-year residence status for the child to be a British citizen had the wrong information.

Concerning the outcome on the Italian side, I had a chat with my mum and she told me what the Italian tv is showing.. Well, they all agree child should stay in UK. This lady was deemed as unsuitable for parentage for two other children and the lady's parents declined to care for the third one publicly, therefore this little baby would be up for adoption in Italy too.

I am just filled of sadness ;( a baby that nobody in her family wants ;(

@Spero, I apologise if I got irked too much yesterday. Just imagine how many stereotypes I get as an Italian here :( so sometimes I just lose it. Very sorry, because .i found all your other posts quite interesting.

Regardless of right or wrong or blame. The last paragraph brought a tear to my eye.

"If in later life P reads this judgment, as she may well do, I hope that she will appreciate that her mother in particular loved her and wished for her to return to live with her and to bring her up. It is not her fault, nor P's that that was not possible and that a predictable home could only be secured by way of adoption. P should know that the mother very much wished to parent her and bring her up and I hope that that is some small comfort both to the mother and also to P"

Unless there has been a recent change to the law I missed, you do not get citizenship simply by being born here. One of your parents has to be a British citizen, or your mother if parents not married I think.

Children can end up stateless if the country of their parent's origin won't issue them with travel documents.

But an English court has jurisdiction over any child physically present here.

Sorry lake district babe that my childish attempts at humour upset you. I hope you understand I wasn't trying to be offensive about your country!

Claw2, yes that was a very humane paragraph. I hope it is some comfort.

Sounds like the mother did what she could but was sadly overwhelmed at various points in her life by her illness.

It is amazing how inaccurately a lot of it has been reported. The papers said the mother was 'deported' to Italy after birth but it's clear from the judgment that the Judge wanted her to stay here and engage in the proceedings but she wanted to go back. Journalists appear to have relied solely on the mother's account and not bothered to check the facts. But then it made a much more sensational story that way.

Such scaremongering is so unhelpful and puts people off seeking the help they need.

It's a very sad story.

@Spero no worries! Sometimes humour doesn't come off as believed, does it? ;)

Re: citizenship.... I have no idea what my friend did, but none of the parents is English. And the child is English, legally English.

Just wondering if the fact that Social Services took over in the process made this baby legally English then. Because at birth she was clearly with no citizenship at all.

The only order the family courts can make to give a non British child citizenship is to make an adoption order to British family. I doubt very much that anything social workers can do would change a child's status. But if parents are European, it doesn't matter much as you have freedom to travel and work regardless.

claw2 - yes, that is very sad to read.

I think a lot of the problems are that we are probably all thinking of this from the point of view of the mother, but also (I would guess) mostly from the perspective of people who do not suffer from severe mental illness which has caused us to be hospitalised and to lose custody of our other children.

But the court has to look at this from the perspective of the child, and what is best for her. Is handing her back to a mother who has never looked after her and who has a history of relapsing into severe mental illness really the best thing for the child? If someone else in the family had stepped forward to take her, it sounds like the judge would have been amenable, but that did not happen, so finding her a secure adoptive home in the UK will probably be the best thing for her. Yes, it is 'forced', and it is very sad for the mother if she has (finally) turned a corner in treatment of her illness, but to me it sounds like the judgement was made for good reasons.

If the child had been handed back and the mother had relapsed into 'profound' mental illness with paranoid delusions which had caused her to harm the child - which reading between the lines appears to be the concern - I am sure there would be outcry at the negligence of social workers and courts who had allowed that to happen.

If this child has to be adopted ( and i dont believe she should be) why was she not put up for adoption in italy. Why is she being kept in a foreign country? Is it because she is a very attractive prospect for adoptees in the uk as she is so young?

Justto calrify the citizenship issue:

you do not get automatic british citizenship if born in the uk from foreign parents, but you can apply: link here

and a child of Italian nationals born abroad is AUTOMATICALLY an Italian national (all is required is registration of the birth certificate):www.conslondra.esteri.it/NR/exeres/19CF25DF-6C4A-40A8-ACD7-423DCD4590C0,frameless.htm?NRMODE=Published

Exepat, I think the same Judge was responsible for all the judgments in this case. However, I hope the investigation that follows with reveal just how good this judgment was or not, as the case may be. I will remain sceptical until then.

There are many loving, caring parents who suffer episodes of poor mental health or poor health in general, resulting in hospital stays and require periods of respite or even their children periods with foster careers. These children are considered 'in need' not 'at risk'.

claw2 no the same judge didn't hear all the applications. Adoptions fall under the jurisdiction of the family division, whereas decisions about people lacking mental capacity are made by the Court of Protection.

So the Court of Protection decided on the C-section issue but the County Court (and now the High Court) dealt with the care orders and adoption.

FrauMoose

I think one of the major problem is that journalists
a) don't understand the law
and
b) are writing to a tight deadline
and
c) they/their editors/their readers prefer a juicy sensational human interest story with lots of strong statements to a rather dull and complex statement about the statutory duties and powers of various authorities, which confines itself to stating the relatively few agreed facts that are currently known.

Do we honestly trust popular journalists to tell us the truth about the world? Or are they in a branch of the entertainment business, where what's just important to get something - more or less anything out quick, while a story is still 'hot'?

In the case of Booker, I think this is the first time ever one of his columns has been pushed to the front page. And he has been writing on this subject and other cases where social services have taken children for some years.

wandy after suffering a mental breakdown, being sectioned in a foreign country and having a major medical procedure to remove my unborn baby, I think I might have just wanted to go home, wouldn't you?

Wandy I must admit to not reading the precise details (I have hair dye on and cant put my glasses on!) I remember reading the Judges comments about the last time he saw her?

Yes, a judgement has been made. It wasn't a good one though!

Claw I'm not criticising her decision to go home at all - just using it to illustrate how the case has been misreported in the press who said she was forcibly deported.

The Judge who dealt with the adoption will have seen her several times. First when the interim care order was made, then when it was renewed and then when the adoption order was sought.

But, there will have also been proceedings before another court in relation to the C-section.

"She was also of course pregnant with P and an unusual order was made in the Court of Protection on 23rd August 2012 by Mr Justice Mostyn, who apart from giving various directions in relation to the Local Authority and others, gave permission for the birth by way of caesarean section"

It will be interesting to find out why the order was unusually.

9.By that stage it was being asserted by the treating doctors that the mother had regained capacity under the relevant test. I have to say that when the mother appeared before me at that time she did not appear to be at all well, and I am surprised that it was being claimed that she had legal capacity . I am critical of the doctors because it appears to me that she was despatched (in deed escorted ) from the UK with undue haste simply because she wished to go back to Italy. I was led to believe that the mother was in a good state and a good frame of mind but frankly nothing could have been further from the truth, because if one looks at the reports of the admitting Doctors in italy , it is clear that the mother when she arrived in Italy was in a very poor state .She should in my view have been assisted here to participate in these proceedings. I know she wanted to go to Italy but by going to Italy any realistic prospect of P returning to her care was diminished substantially. It is for that reason it seems to me that it was a most ill-advised thing to have occurred. I was critical at the time and I remain critical to this day"

More interesting points, she was deemed to have legal capacity for court hearings, after previously being sectioned and deemed incapable and given a c/s, only to be considered in a poor mental state after. Why is that?

Thanks Wandy, I will have a proper read once my hair is done!