Child taken by from womb by forced C/S for social services!

[StarlightMcKenzie]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/10486452/Woman-has-child-taken-from-her-womb-by-social-services.html

Could there ever be a justifiable reason for this?

But couldn't the child be adopted in Italy?

One day she may want to see her brothers and sisters and speak Italian and be brought up in the same culture, not in a foreign land to all her relatives.

The Italian courts have ruled out that possibility Claig.

They say it is a matter for the British Courts.

There has been extensive liaison between the LA and the Italian authorities.

If you want to get cross, get cross at the Italian state for washing their hands of this baby.

There was controversy when Madonna adopted a child from Malawi.

Here the mother is an Italian citizen, not a British citizen, which is why adoption of her child in Britain is unusual.

"In Ireland, children can't be adopted, they remain in foster care for the whole of their lives"

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yes. But the baby was born in the UK, is a UK citizen, and is under the legal jurisdiction of the UK courts.

I would bet my bottom dollar that if there had been any reasonable way of repatriating the baby without exposing it to significant harm, or neglect, they would have done so.

I think the point about publicity is that, in the care proceedings, it is not allowed in the interests of the child, whereas in the Court of Protection it is the interests of the mother that are being protected. If she chooses to waive her right to privacy and is properly legally advised, she would normally be allowed to do so.

Because what this case tells us, ultimately, is that people's lives are messy. Stuff doesn't happen according to a smooth and well considered plan.

And the people who have to pick up the pieces are themselves constrained by the laws that govern them.

In this case, as tragic as it must be for the mother, the baby is being considered with all the attention to its rights and needs as any other baby born in the UK.

For that, personally, I am thankful.

"If you want to get cross, get cross at the Italian state for washing their hands of this baby."

Yes, I am cross about them. They don't seem to have done much to protect one of their citizens.

But I am also worried about British mothers' rights. What if someone went to Spain on a business training course and had a panic attack and then had their baby given away for adoption in Spain. Can you imagine the outcry in our press?

The Daily Mail would run it, the Telegraph and the Sun would run it and Newsnight would run Tom Daley.

"I would bet my bottom dollar that if there had been any reasonable way of repatriating the baby without exposing it to significant harm, or neglect, they would have done so."

Well yes, I hope so. Maybe we can be told more information about the process.

Good night, we'll see if there is more information tomorrow.

Claig, this wasn't a case of all the consequences arising from a mere panic attack, and you don't help your argument by suggesting it was.

claig, really, I don't think that is something we have to be concerned about until a case comes to light.

We can all worry about potential shit until the cows come home.

But to worry about it, then extrapolate a potential outcome based on our own fears is worse than useless.

Can I just say that the UK does not use 'jus soli' to give citizenship, like the US for instance. Being born in the UK in and of itself does not mean you get to be citizen, unless you would otherwise be stateless

I'm not actually sure this baby is a citizen. To be a British Citizen at birth when born in the UK, at least one of your parents has to be a British citizen, or a permanent resident, or for an EEA country, I think they now have to have lived in the UK for 5 years prior to the birth. If they haven't, the baby isn't eligible for becoming a citizen until the parents have finished the 5 year minimum living period

And to reiterate, the baby was NOT an Italian citizen, she is a British citizen.

Okay fair enough, just making a general point, because I know some (British) adoptive parents who have a nightmare adopting children whose birth parents are from EU countries and gave birth in the UK, but the children aren't British leading to all sorts of beurocracy

thanks lilka. I was wrong. I would be interested to know if she had an automatic citizenship on birth based on her mother's citizenship.

But that does not obviate the fact she was subject to British law upon her birth.

Much as the professionals might have wished this particular nightmare had not landed on their plates.

I mean an automatic citizenship to another member state of the EU, in this instance, Italy, based on her mother's citizenship status.

I did see that there was some confusion about the actual nationality of the mother, who was described as habitually resident in Italy. which is not the same as being an Italian citizen.

yes mary, there is ambiguity there, and lilka has addressed that.

We don't actually know the citizenship of the mother.

Which shows how many assumptions we all make!

the important thing is to realise that when challenged. Not stay firm in the face of other facts.

Its no skin off my nose if I get something like that wrong, and the sooner I admit it, the sooner the debate can continue along reasonable lines.