Amanda Hutton found guilty of manslaughter

[Rowlers]

Just that.
I find the photo of that poor little boy very distressing.

[duchesse]

Don't get me wrong, I think this woman is a shit mother whose allegiance was entirely to alcohol. I do think however that this child may have well have had additional needs that meant he was unable to fend for himself as presumably the others had been.

Without wanting to out anybody, I have two sets of friends who have adopted UK sibling groups. In both cases the children were vastly neglected. In one set a group of very young (toddler) siblings were found in a park across the road from their house looking for food for their baby (under 1) brother whom they had in a pushchair, because even they had realised he needed feeding.

In the other group, police officers broke down the door of the house to find all the children malnourished, but the littlest one (under 1) fiercely guarding from the others a packet of cereal that she'd found.

I think that most NT children even under the age of 1 have a basic survival instinct, which this little one seems not to have had even though his siblings appear to have done. There must have been food in the house or the older children would have starved as well. Which is why I'm wondering whether he did not have additional needs that obviously being totally shit at parenting, his parents did not cater for.

[JumpingJackSprat]

duchesse what difference does it make if the child has SEN? its not up to him to look after himself!!

[kiriwawa]

I'm not sure that the older children were at school - the report I read in the Grauniad said that they were malnourished, in nappies and unable to walk :(

Of course the system should have looked out for these children. It doesn't make Amanda Hutton any less culpable, but children should be protected against abject parental neglect. It's not binary. And it's absurd to say that people wouldn't feel that social services/other agencies had a responsibility if she'd been a man

[wannaBe]

Oh so it was the father that was responsible (even though he did go to the police), the police, the social workers, everyone else but the mother who was the one who knowingly neglected six children and kept a body in her bedroom for two years. She seems to have had the presence of mind to evade the authorities for that length of time, yet she clearly was suffering and the poor love didn’t get any help.

Fuck that. I’m sick of this attitude which seems to suggest that if it’s a woman who kills her children (through whatever means) then there must somehow be some mitigating circumstances. Mental illness/abuse/alchoholism, anything but personal responsibility. When will people realise that women kill their children. That women are just as capable of abusing their children as men?

Amanda hutton chose to drink. She chose to neglect her six children. She chose to conceal the body of her child who at the age of four was in a nine month babygrow. She chose to carry on drinking even though her drinking had led to the death of her own child. Maybe the brother who helped conceal the body was also a victim of abuse? After all he was her child, so it stands to reason that he will have grown up in an abusive household. Sympathy for him? Oh no, because he’s a man isn’t he.

[Coffeenowplease]

I read a report saying the youngest were still in nappies. Youngest plural. The youngest child you have been 5.

Thats worrying. Im guessing they didnt go to school either then.

[Wannabestepfordwife]

kirwawa just read that it really brought a lump to my throat those poor children are going to need such specialised care.

Hutton killed the poor mite no doubt about it but the father and brothers could have and should have done more. Also if she's the horrific person he says she is (I am inclined to believe him) then why did he keep having children with her. I'm not blaming him for the situation I just don't quite understand it.

[wannaBe]

aren't there always other parties who should be aware when someone murders their children though?

These things rarely happen in isolation; there is almost always some sign that things are amiss, surely? even if it's not outright neglect, then evidence of mh issues etc?

Who knows why anyone stays in a bad relationship, but there are enough people who do which mean it's far too simplistic to suggest that leaving is the easy way out...

And given the father was then denied access to his children once the relationship ended it's not hard to see why he stayed.

[FairyJen]

What gets me in particular about this case is that it IS murder. The level of deception involved tells you this. The child was found in a cot in the mothers bedroom. So how does that work? We're the other children told never to enter that room? We're they told he had left? Or were they forced to say silent?

What needs to happen to help prevent this is a change I. Legislation which grants health care professionals and as the same rights if access as the police.

As a sw I cannot enter a house without permission. If I feel the need is so great I can ring the police. However ( speaking from bitter experience) if the police cannot see a visible cause or a significant and immediate risk of harm to a child from the doorway ( if still refused access ) they won't get ou in either!

[duchesse]

Fairy- I bet that despite the rules even as a SW, if you knew a child was in immediate danger inside you'd be in there like a shot! Anyone would, surely? If a house were on fire you wouldn't wait for a warrant to save the occupants.

[Wannabestepfordwife]

Another thing I don't quite understand is did she quit drinking while pregnant or was it just not picked up on I mean it would be a huge red flag someone drinking heavily while pregnant

[Lilka]

duchesse Whilst I agree that generally even very young children have a strong survival instinct and try and fend for themselves if they physically can, this child was only in 6 month clothes wasn't he, when he was found. He probably never grew much at all and it's unlikely IMHO that he could have supported himself even to crawl by his last months/year, let alone walk - I've seen pictures of 5-8 year olds waiting for adoption is foregn orphanages, weighing very little and totally unable to crawl etc, just from malnutriton, literally sometimes weighing under 10 pounds, size of a newborn. It's quite likely IMHO that in the last months before his death, Hamza couldn't even crawl, so how's he supposed to do anything for himself or find food?

[FairyJen]

To the pp who mentioned her hangover, if she is a serious alcoholic she will ha e been given a drink to stop her going into shock. With serious alcoholism going cold turkey can kill you

[FairyJen]

If your not allowed access how do you k ow of the danger tho? Rushing in and being wrong means you've lost our job and never working as a sw again

[wannaBe]

"Fairy- I bet that despite the rules even as a SW, if you knew a child was in immediate danger inside you'd be in there like a shot! Anyone would, surely?" no. Because you have to get it right for the benefit of the child. Enough people see sw as heavy-handed child snatchers as it is without them taking the law into their hands and rushing in on a gut instinct. Plus doing it wrong and without a warrant would almost certainly prejudice any future trial and the sw would never work again.

It's likely this child had fetal alcohol syndrome if the mother was such a heavy drinker, and this would have stunted his growth amongst other things...

[whatnameshallibetoday]

Some of you have no idea how hard it is for an NRP to see or help his children in the face of intractable hostility from the mother, because that eventually extends to the children.

And I speak as someone whose husband has court orders and sought help.

Too often emotional abuse and legalised kidnapping (which is how I view denying a loving parent be that man or woman and their children the chance of a relationship) are passed off as a dispute between parents.

Agencies wont get involved, schools are legally stopped from getting involved in parent disputes - I should know - we tried enough agencies.

That poor boy, another example of a terribly underfunded system.

[duchesse]

When I say "immediate danger" I mean sounds of being beaten up or mauled by a dog or muffled cries coming from a cupboard type of immediate danger. Not a suspicion the kids weren't being fed enough.

[SouthernComforts]

I never understand why these disgusting excuse for mothers continue having child after child. Abort them, give them up for adoption, leave them on a strangers doorstep. But for fucks sake, how could she just leave him in a cot to starve to death then leave his body to rot?

Absolutely no excuses, I have no sympathy and I hope she gets exactly what she deserves in prison.

[pumpkinsweetie]

I don't see how she got only manslaughter, it should have been murder. She purposely took his life.

Very, very sad that the system is still failing children and lessons are never learnt enough to change anything.
It's very shocking and that no one noticed he was missing

How many more brutal child murders does there have to be to get the authorities to save future murders happening?

[Nusatenggara]

I think it is manslaughter they go for so that they could be sure of a conviction.

I guess resources are so stretched and there must be many dysfunctional families who are doing their best to keep out of the way of SS that it would be easy enough to slip under the radar.

I imagine being a SW is a pretty thankless task tbh.

What on earth has happened to the siblings? How will they ever grow into anything other than completely skewed adults if how they lived was their 'normal'.

Be interesting to know her background, it is such a vicious circle and seemingly impossible to break .

[kiriwawa]

He was not a 'loving parent' - he was convicted of assaulting her and she was considered at very high risk of further assault. Loving parents don't batter their children's mother

[JakeBullet]

Yes indeed he could have been affected by foetal alcohol syndrome. That might explain a lot about his refusal to eat or other issues that his very unreliable mother mentioned.

[roadwalker]

This is what I find hard to comprehend on mumsnet- not everyone I agree
Women, it seems, can never be blamed for whatever terrible thing they have done to a child, they are always victims
As an adult, unless there is LD, we make choices. She could've made choices to save that poor child
She could've put him into care, asked for help, fed him
I think he probably did have FAS given his history so needed more care

My friend has recently had to change career, she worked in SCBU and is no longer able to cope with distress of seeing babies born addicted to drugs and alcohol. She said the pain they suffer is so terrible
What is the answer to protect these poor children whist allowing women their own rights??

[wannaBe]

fifteen years.

[JakeBullet]

Yeah...difficult one for the judge tbh. Not really enough but suspect his hands were probably tied to a certain extent.