Female chauvinist pigs - do they exist?

[puddle]

Interesting article in the Guardian today about Ariel Levy who has written a book called "Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture"

"My book is not an attack on the sex industry," says Levy. "It's about how the sex industry has become every industry...."

....as illustrated by for eg with phenomena such as pole dancing, breast implant surgery being routine, the new fashion for brazilians, playboy merchandise being targeted at schoolchildren, Ann Summers on the high street.

She calls women who are willing not just to accept this culture, but actively to participate in it: taking up pole dancing as a hobby for instance as "female chauvinist pigs", which she defines as "women who make sex objects of other women and of ourselves".

I read the article this morning and it really struck a chord with me. especially this quote

"If you happen to be a person for whom this incredibly specific form of sexual expression [the ultra-consumerist porn-star ideal] is authentic," she says, "then this is your moment, and you should enjoy it. But if you're anyone else, then you may as well be back in the 1950s, because there's no other sexual model on offer to you."

Interested in what others think. Is this another example of women beating up each other and blaming ourselves for society's ills? An ultra conservative critique?

but are they? why is the selling of sex considered degrading in society

why is it when women have a commodity that men do not. suddenly we cannot be empowered by that fact - its degrading sordid etc etc.

'(Which clearly isn't true, as I don't look like those women at all, and I've had sex with masses of people.)'

MI, she took the words right off my keyboard

Fortunately, I have the self-confidence to not feel one bit like my body isn't something someone would want to have sex with.

And also there are billions of males who are horndogs and will have sex w/a female who doesn't look like a porn star .

Well that's the nub Custy, the difference between what is and what we feel ought to be

For women there are consequences to admitting you are a prostitute, it undoubtedly will affect the rest of your relationships with men, if you are honest.

And yes there are plenty of men who will Expat (hi BTW ) but there is also alongside that a beauty industry that is making lost of money from women aspiring to the media ideal (porn being part of the media).

why is selling sex the domain of women? gay men do it and so do a few hetro men... I find it all degrading ...there's nothing wrong with celebrating sexuality the human body is beautiful... but when it becomes sordid, weird and just plain gross it's gone too far imo...

and so there are all these empowered women selling themselves...funny.. it's men who make the most money out of it, men who consume the majority of it and women who pay the price... do you really think it doesn't damage these people and society?

Yes it's a commodity alright but are women just pieces of flesh? because I'm totally sure that the blokes don't give a toss what you think or who you are while you shake your tits and arse in their faces!!

A woman may feel empowered but do they feel respected...just because a few women feel this empowerment to deal with their life choices should it become a template for female sexuality??

I can feel that kind of empowerment walking down the road in a short skirt and belly top past a building site!

No but women are more choosy than men - it's supply and demand that's all.

There are more complex scientific explanations for this but I don't want to bore everyone..

i'm not for one minute sugesting that in the real world women feel empowered or respected - i am challenging why they dont

why is it sordid?

i am asking why it is that these occupations are looked upon with disdain.

does gay pron get a better rap than straight porn? i don't know. but i get the impression that as its more accepted within gay culture that the normalisation of something considered in straight culture to be degrading and disgusting - just doesn't have the same effect.

we are accepting that sex and sexualisation are marketable

why therefore is it ok in societal terms to have sex with a guy from the pub - but as soon as you say - that will be £20 please

it becomes sordid.

i propose that its just another example of womens subjegation in a male dominated (politically, buisiness, POWER - society.

pay for the wax
pay for the tit job
pay fro the dress
pay for the underware
pay for the facial
pay for the manicure
pay for the moisturiser
pay for the hair do
pay for the shoes
pay for the waxing
pay for the dinner
pay for the wine
pay for the beer
pay for the club
but women must fuck for free - and cannot class it as a business without it being sordid, distasteful etc

'women must fuck for free'lol....sleeping with the guy down the pub does not compare to prosituting yourself!!and charging £20 (is bloody cheap lol)turns a 1 night stand into a transaction... is that(mutually satisifying I hope) sex between 2 consenting adults? now thats sordid...

Yeah women are subjegated but I think it's sad that a womans contribution to societyshould be selling themselves and other women.

Why is it sordid???mmmmm... to sell yourself or anyone else isn't contrary to established moral principles?? doesn't make you and other women more objectified than they already are? doesn't change women into the very things this male dominated society have wanted us to become...posessions... bloody hell we've been suckered into actually selling ourselves and liking it!!!

There are many very complex reasons why I don't believe it it ever be 'okay' for women to be promiscuous, even if she isn't a prostitute. Not until we stop having babies that way anyway.

That's not to say women can't have multiple partners, but the more they have and the more publicly they advertise it the more consequences they will have in their personal lives. That isn't my opinion. That's a observed fact.

Women who appropriate male sexuality don't do them any favours.

Why this happens is what I'm interested in.

it seems to be a way for less intellectual people to make a quick buck.

Should have said ...'okay' for the majority of women...

Oh I'm really interested in this discussion, but will have to come back to it later.

southeastastra what a rude sweeping statement!

sleeping around - with no cash involved is ok and not sordid becuase its mutually satisfying. is it really? or is it an expectation to cop off at the end of the night?

however a woman wants to sell sex - a man wants to buy it. mutually consentual. why is this sordid?

Hi MT, thanks for directing me to this thread, it's been and interesting read. Custardo, I'd be interested to know what the boundries are in your relationships and personal life?

I agree with much of what has been said. There is nothing wrong with women seeking to have good sex but I feel it's a mistake to think you'll find it by styling yourself as the stereotypical perfect woman. Good sex comes as part of a good and gets better as the realtionship develops. Having said that, I've no problem with having short flings btw realtionships but just not to get into the mindset where you think that's best.

For anyone with any doubt that realtionships can be destroyed because of porn and sexual addiction please look at this . I hope I can save my marriage, but there are others who can't. I honestly don't believe this would have been a problem without the easy access to porn and the sexualistion of modern culture that has been perpetuated in recent times. I also don't think anyone can truly comment on whether they think porn can be a problem until they or someone they know has experienced it as an addiction.

It frightens me that our daughters are growing up in a world where it is acceptable for them to want to be like some of the women in this industry. They don't know what effect they will have on their own relationships or those of other women in the future. It's OK to want to look nice and feel attractive but intimacy is far more important in a relationship.

I did like the body shop's ad campaign "There are 3 billion women who don't look like supermodels and only 8 who do."

needtoseelight. why would my personal boundaries be relevent to this thread?

personal stories whilst sad and real to the person do not maketh an argument.

addiction is a subject matter on its own. my dh has an addiction and i think it naive to think that should that addiction be thrown away that things would be ok. becuase there would always be another addiction. the subject of addiction is about being able to control oneself.

take the addiction argument to the conclusion you make with porn and your dh - and there would be no gambling, no national lottery, no slot machines no card games.
there would be no computers, no internet.
there would be no chocolate and a strickly rationed diet only.

addiction is a whole other argument.

we shouldnt want to argue for legeslation becuase some people get addicted to things.

But there is legislation just for that reason Custy. To put limits on the stuff that's bad for us in large doses.

ok it was rude - im keeping off this

I agree with a lot of what monkeytrousers says and although I haven't read the article I read a review of this book a while ago and I've got the gist.

To me this is similar to Naomi Wolf's Beauty Myth argument: that women who claim empowerment and to be doing it for themselves fail to recognise how much of their view has been influenced by societal expectations/manipulation.

gotto go, fking boring stuff to do. May come back.

I was thinking about the sex prostitution thing and the thing is, I don't think I do think it's ok to sell sex. and in a just world where women were paid the same as men and wielded the same power it just wouldn't happen imo.

I wouldn't argue for a change in legislation, but can hope for a change in culture and the mindset of women. I think personal boundries are hugely iportant to a debate about a subject like this as we all need to recognise that we have been influenced by culture, media, people etc.

Also there is a distinction between something like alcohol or subsatnce misuse and addictions relating to the body's 'natural' desires.

Also, the alcohol or drug doesn't have feelings, self esteem issues about being used. Nor does it have the potential of a human being. People involved in the sex industry are exploited by other more powerful people (generally men)and their own futures can be seriously damaged as well as their actions damaging the lives of others

what do you mean by boundaries

perhaps if you tell me yourbounderies i will understand what you mean and decide whether i wish to disclose that information.

legislation for things that are bad for us - so porn is bad for us?

see i dont think it is. its bad for some.

Yes, too much porn is bad for you.

too much of most things is bad for you.

Yeah but that's like comparing heroin to sugar

One would most certainly kill you eventually o.d or otherwise

and the other rots your teeth!!!...unless you are diabetic...then you may have other issues!

people don't commit crime to get their sugar fix!!

'people don't commit crime to get their sugar fix!! '

no, but the murders of at least two women - katherine horton and jane longhurst - admit that their violent-porn fantasies fuelled their crimes.

I think porn is bad in the sense that most people involved in the porn industry are either vile low-life exploiters, or hideously exploited unhappy people with a history of sexual abuse. When you look at an airbrushed woman with the gormless look and the naked minge and you realise that she has probably spent the last 10 years having her self-esteem and sense of self crushed by men, it's hard to see her as an object of eroticism.

Porn in theory is OK in a society where men and women are genuinely equal and where women have the same level of sovreignty over their own bodies as men do, from the word go. But we don't live in such a society.