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News

Badger Cull

160 replies

ThursdayLast · 27/08/2013 07:33

Anyone have any opinions on the badger cull?
Or the protests surrounding them?

OP posts:
LentilAsAnything · 28/08/2013 18:18

What are you disagreeing with? I've laid out facts.
We do not need meat or dairy to survive. We thrive, in fact, we do better, on a plant-based diet.
Therefore, killing animals is a cruel thing to do. Depriving a calf of his mother, is unnecessary and barbaric.
Meat and dairy industries are diabolical for the planet.

All I understand about your points are that you wish to carry on eating cow flesh and mammary secretions, and don't care how many cows or badgers have to die in order for this to happen.

ThursdayLast · 28/08/2013 18:18

MLL,

I'm not part of Defra, so I can't speak for their motives. All I know is that the testing and slaughtering of cattle is not proving effective ENOUGH, and that perhaps combined with a badger cull will see better results.

We don't know if we don't try. I know that there are other studies that you have cited, but circumstances change, and research needs to be refreshed.

OP posts:
JourneyThroughLife · 28/08/2013 18:19

Sorry, I only have one point to make..... I don't care if it's badgers, cows or even warring nations, I just wish that whenever there's a problem the only solution human beings can think of is to kill something.....

ANormalOne · 28/08/2013 18:19

We've already carried out an 8 year trial that showed that badger culling worked, but not effectively, how is a 6 week trial going to 'definitively demonstrate' whether it's effective or not? Hmm

JourneyThroughLife · 28/08/2013 18:19

...surely there's a better answer?

ANormalOne · 28/08/2013 18:21

There is a better answer, but it's a long term plan. People don't want that. They want something short term, regardless of how effective or ineffective it is. Nothing new there.

ThursdayLast · 28/08/2013 18:27

It's only relatively short term...in the mean time farmers go out of business and cows are unnecessarily killed.

It is definitely an imperfect situation, but I personally believe that the pros of the trial outweigh the cons.

OP posts:
ANormalOne · 28/08/2013 18:30

Yeah, I bet that 15% reduction of TB is really going to stop unnecessary killing and the farmers going out of business, isn't it?

All you're doing is putting your fingers in your ears and going, 'NAH NAH NAH NAH NAH, I think it's going to work, NAH NAH NAH NAH' with no evidence to support your point.

I'm done.

LentilAsAnything · 28/08/2013 18:35

Journey, the better answer is to educate everybody that we need to stop using animals. Stop eating them, stop consuming their milk and eggs. It truly is that simple. It is a perfect solution.

WetAugust · 28/08/2013 19:06

The problem is that at present it is impossible to distinguish between a BCG-vaccinated and TB-infected cow.

Again, a rubbish argument.

You test the stock - you have to do those tests regularly any way.

Those that are 'clear' of TB get vaccinated. You put a RED tag in their ear.

Those that test positive or false positive for TB get destroyed - just as they do at the moment.

You therefore gradually build up a national herd of cows that have been vaccinated against TB - as evidenced by the RED tags in their ears.

Simples.

MostlyLovingLurchers · 28/08/2013 19:15

We don't know if we don't try. I know that there are other studies that you have cited, but circumstances change, and research needs to be refreshed.

But we do know. I won't bother listing all the trials and studies again, but we know exactly how much of a reduction in bTB will result. As ANormalOne has posted, a 70% reduction in the badger population equates to a 12-16% reduction in bTB in the short term. This trial is short term and does not even attempt to determine how many of the culled badgers are infected, something which might actually help inform what is happening. This is politics over evidence-based scientific advice.

Takver · 28/08/2013 20:16

I also live in the part of Wales that was in the proposed pilot cull area. Two things to note:

  • the people I knew who were most anti the cull were dairy farmers with a science background. They were of the opinion having researched it thoroughly that the cull was likely to make the TB problem worse, not better because of the disturbance factor. Some were openly in the anti camp, but at least one family didn't feel able to be openly anti-cull because of social pressure, however I know they disguised as many of their badger sets as possible with farm machinery etc before the survey.
  • annoyingly I can't find the statistics now, but I am reasonably certain (ie I saw the WAG stats) that the incidence of TB in cattle in the pilot area fell statistically significantly once the surveying started - with the assumption being that greater enforcement of bio-security was the cause.
SlowlorisIncognito · 28/08/2013 20:53

I have every sympathy with cattle farmers who lose animals to TB. I think more money should be put into developing effective vaccinations against TB, as this will prevent cattle catching TB from all sources, and should eventually develop herd immunity. I think the government should be funding this as a priority.

Whilst badgers are a source of TB infection, there is a lot you can do to prevent badgers getting into cattle sheds, and stop them being attracted onto the farm, as the main source of infection is badgers coming into cattle sheds in search of food or bedding. However, another animal which is a major carrier of TB in the UK are deer. Deer are more likely to share pasture with cattle, thus it's harder to prevent infection.

Plenty of other animals, including more exotic livestock such as camelids (including animals like camels and alpacas) can infect cattle with TB. Whilst cattle are routinely tested before movement, sometimes more unusual forms of livestock are not tested as there is less awareness and less restrictions. It is possible that when these animals come into contact (e.g. at an agricultural show), TB could be spread from the camelid to a cow.

Enforcing biosecurity on farms is really important for disease prevention. The government could perhaps put money into helping small scale farmers develop better bio-security (for example by providing grants for specific equiptment, or providing education on the best techniques). Large scale intensive farms are very hot on biosecurity, and tend to have less problems with disease (because infectious disease in an intensive environment is devistating).

I'm not against a cull in principle, although I do think there are other things the government could and should be doing (instead if it has to be a choice). However, I do think doing a cull in a small area is pointless. It will probably have one of two results (because culls in a limited area usually do)- either it will cause badgers to disperse from the cull area into the surrounding areas, causing, possibly, a rise in TB in those neighbouring areas, or, after the cull is over, badgers from neighbouring areas will move back in, redering the cull pointless over the long term.

I'm also worried about the effect of removing badgers from ecosystems, which doesn't seem to have been that widely investigated. Badgers act as an apex predator in lots of ecosystems, and it has been shown that the removal of apex predators often has unintended consequences for the ecosystem.

In this specific case, I would be a bit worried about the effect on mink populations. Badgers do sometimes compete with mink for food, so it follows a lack of badgers might cause an increase in mink populations, which we have spent a long time trying to completely eradicate, because they are a harmful invasive species. It will probably also cause an increase in other predator numbers, such as foxes.

I think the trials are so small scale and short term as to be pointless, and I wonder if the government are going to use this as an excuse not to go ahead with a wide scale cull and go back to ignoring the problem of bovine TB.

Jellykat · 28/08/2013 21:00

Absolutely Takver, and do you remember while EJ was trying to push the cull through, the amounts of letters to our local paper from landowners and farmers pointing out the many flaws in cattle management/ movement/ testing etc.. Thankfully here these huge gaps in biosecurity have been tightened, but i have not read or heard anywhere, any talk of enforcement regarding these gaps in the English cull areas..

Jellykat · 28/08/2013 21:28

Icognito Evidence for what you are saying is stated here -

www.badgergate.org/guest-articles/why-a-badger-cull-wont-work/

Please read Thursday, i'd be interested in what you reckon to it.

Varya · 28/08/2013 22:20

Dairy cows live comparatively short lives and grieve for the calves taken from them. To me farming seems a very cruel way of life and the badger cull is just another cruelty. I thought badgers were supposed to be a protected species.

MostlyLovingLurchers · 28/08/2013 22:39

Yes Varya, they are legally protected under The Protection of Badgers Act 1992. However, Natural England (who are fundamentally part of Defra) can issue licenses in 'exceptional' circumstances. They have said that no further licenses will be issued until the effects of the pilots have been evaluated.

Interesting point Incognito re using the pilot culls as an excuse not to roll out something on a larger scale.

ThatVikRinA22 · 30/08/2013 00:53

i have no idea why the government cowtow to the land owning masses on this issue.
i sat in a pub the other week listening to a farmer having lunch with his lawyer and talking about the fields he just sold for over a million pounds.

poor farmers. i had to leave. he was very loud and put me right off my food.
thats what the cull is about. money. everything always is.

ThursdayLast · 30/08/2013 07:56

I liked that link Jellykat, rational and insightful. Thank you for sharing it with me. (And thanks for not advocating worldwide vegan ism as the answer too the worlds problems Wink)

I think Incognitos final point is probably the most accurate of all that have been posted on here...that this is a govt attempt to save face with the rural community and no further or more long reaching efforts will be made.

This thread has really emphasised then need for a workable vaccine for cattle, and taught me lots of others things too...some more helpful than others!

Vicarina, I hope you're not so narrow minded as to believe all farmers are the same! I'd like to emphasise that 'landowner' and 'farmer' are not mutually exclusive. But thanks for your insightful anecdote all the same.

OP posts:
ThatVikRinA22 · 30/08/2013 22:53

i do believe that this is about politics and money, and not about science.

ive read jellys post - which seems to reiterate this fact. the cull has no basis in science.

so why are we even having this discussion?

WetAugust · 30/08/2013 22:54

Because lots of cows have TB so 'something must be done'.

Tosspots!

Jellykat · 30/08/2013 23:19

I agree with Vicar, the basis for the cull is not scientifically led.. surely that only leaves politics and money.

The government has to be seen to be doing something, killing badgers in these IAAs is an easy option..but then what? Sad

ThursdayLast · 31/08/2013 07:16

I started this thread because it is a matter that's important to me and I hoped to gain some knowledge from others opinions...and I have.

I don't think politics and money are necessarily the evil you all believe...decisions on war, the NHS etc are all made politically and financially.

And money IS important when it's YOUR livelihood on the line.

Trying to help reduce TB does not make anyone a tosspot.

OP posts:
WetAugust · 31/08/2013 09:48

...but the methods they are employing in their attempt to reduce/annihilate bovine TB do make them tosspots.

They should be having that difficult conversation with the EU over an acceptable vaccination policy.

Not culling badgers in a few disparate areas in the hope that it may reduce TB by a paltry 15% max. A completely unsustainable strategy longterm.

It's a tosspot idea.

Jellykat · 31/08/2013 11:40

Thursday There's something i don't understand..to put it simplisitically- farmers get compensation for a TB infected cow don't they? What proportion of the cows worth is the compensation? i.e does it fund buying another cow?

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