Badger Cull

[ThursdayLast]

Anyone have any opinions on the badger cull?
Or the protests surrounding them?

cazboldy - you make it sound like the only rational opinion is one that agrees with a cull.

i am a perfectly rational human being.
so rational i read the scientific evidence that had been gathered with regards a cull.
that seems to shed doubt on the effectiveness of a cull.

im am a fan of evidence based scientific research.
so
in light of that i am against a cull.
i believe i am still perfectly capable of being rational. funny eh?

There is a vaccine, possibly even the same one used on badgers, but the EU don't allow it to be used on cattle. The details aren't clear to me, so I can't explain better than that I'm afraid
I think vaccination would be preferable, of course I do, who doesn't want healthy livestock?
I suppose questions would be raised over the produce of vaccinated animals...hopefully that's something that's being researched right now.

Is that he scientific research that suggests a cull could affect a 12% decrease in bovine TB?

In that case I'd suggest it's in the interpretation...I think a 15% decrease is a good thing. Others see it as a waste of time.

I'm also against a cull - mainly because I do not think it will many any difference at all.

TB will still exist in those areas outside the cull zone. What's the long term strategy here. Do we use the cull zones to prove that by eradicating badgers in those cull zones we have denied TB the opportunity to infect the cows that exist within the cull zones so the next logical step is to eradicate all badgers nationwide? Do we want to kill every badger in Britain?

I hears that there is a vaccine that could be used but were we to use it our meat would not be exportable? Really? I've also read there is a vaccine but it's not that effective. Well, to me they should carry on the research until there is an effective vaccine.

I'd hate to sacrifice the entire badger population of the UK because of some EU dogma against using a perfectly good vaccine - for commercial purposes.

But having said all that - after BSE, after organo-phosphates, after contamination in the food process, etc etc, who can we believe any more?

The cattle vaccine currently can't be used as any vaccinated cattle would give the same reading as a TB reactor, this would make things difficult when importing, thats why the EU won't allow it atm.

The estimated decrease in Bovine TB is 12-15% as given by DEFRA, it could be lower, but i know when we were fighting the cull 3 years ago, the estimated figure for a reduction in TB by culling was 9%, funny how it seems to have risen..

Well, for me the benefits are not sufficient to warrant a cull.

I have not heard about any demonstrations - I live in one of the cull zones.

Jellykat - Adam 'off of' countryfile also is absolutely for the badger cull and is one of its biggest campaigners. What's your point?

I'm giving you actual real life first hand opinion on what farmers think and you are backing up your opinion with what you saw on a BBC telly programme that has to think up new subject matter week after week.

If anyone can show me an example of an intensive/ factory beef or sheep farm in this country I will eat my straw hat. All of the EU subsidies are trying to divert farmers away from that type of farming.It just doesn't make sense!

Westmorland - there are a couple of cattle ones but not near me so I can't be more specific although my inlaws have visited them. They were huge yard type cattle farms and they came home a bit shell shocked after visiting them.

But not all farming is cattle or sheep!!! Intensive farming can cover pigs, chickens, ducks, geese, turkeys, rabbits or any other farmed animal. I don't think anybody has specified on this thread what type of meat they were talking about being intensively farmed. You have just assumed beef or sheep - maybe you live in a hill farm area? I live in intensive farming country where even the arable is intensively farmed!! Every acre is farmed to death round here!

And I think you may be surprised that some farmers are going more intensive. Hence the visit by my relatives to the beef farm - it is a way forward when we are moving towards food shortages with more people to feed and less space. The subsidies are forever changing depending on the priority of the time.

I know Adam off of Countryfile is for the cull, what is your point? I never mentioned Adams views on the subject. Adams view doesn't change my opinion.

I'm well aware of what farmers think, as a lot of our Anti cull members were farmers.. so again, whats your point? As a smallholder with many badger setts and no incidences of TB reactors amongst my immediate farming neighbours, am i not allowed a say on the matter?

I'm saying on that programme they were showing a young farmer around an Intensively farmed cattle farm in England.. if you'd like i can watch it on IPlayer and catch the name of it, but sadly not tonight as it's a bit late..

i really think the thinking behind this cull is flawed - it seems to me that the farmers and land owners opinions matter more than the actual evidence.
wonder why that is......

(actually i dont wonder at all.)

I'm not in favour of this cull, either.

And I'm by no means an Animal Rights person.

Jellykat, but what percentage decrease in tb will the vaccinating achieve? If there is a workable vaccine and we can't use it because of the eu rules then we are focusing on the wrong point by arguing about the cull imo. We should be lobbying for that instead. I think i and many others don't want a cull, we just want no tb! And noone is talking about exterminating all badgers, i think it is a 70 % reduction.

VicarinaTutu,

I wonder.
What do you mean?

Forgive the length of this but it is (I think) helpful).

From yesterday's Times:

Why can't we vaccinate animals to stop them contracting TB? Vaccines have been developed but there is no test to distinguish between vaccinated animals and ones that have the disease. For this reason the EU says vaccinated cattle have to be regarded as infected. In theory badgers could be vaccinated but the task would be enormous and the vaccine would have to be administered every year.

Has culling worked elsewhere? In Ireland the number of cases of bovine TV has fallen dramatically since culling started a decade ago. Similar results were found in NZ where bovine TB was being spread by possums. (I have shortened this as it was vv long).

Many experts believe that a combination of culling and vaccinations and restrictions on cattle movement will eventually overcome the disease.

---

It's all very well saying "I'm against the cull" but unfortunately that really doesn't get anybody anywhere at the moment. The UK farming industry can not wait for years until a properly effective vaccine is sorted, and in the meantime not only cattle but badgers are suffering - many people seem to think that the badgers are only carriers, but they're not, they are also victims of the disease. Overcrowding is as unhealthy for badgers as it is for other species.

I wish we could get away from the thinking that all farmers and landowners are rich bastards trying to influence the government for their own ends - I'm a landowner (2 whole acres), I'm not a rich plutocrat with a title and a fancy house, just someone who lives amongst a farming community with people who are really struggling to deal with something completely out of their control. Just because farmers make money from and with their livestock does not render them completely inhumane and uncaring - their cattle may not live in the house, but they mean as much to the farmer as my dog does to me, and not just for financial reasons. Yes, there are bad farmers, as there are bad pet owners, bad bankers, bad social workers, bad teachers, bad solicitors - but for every one of them are 100's of decent hard working people who do not deserve to be vilified at every turn for wanting to make a living.

I'd better go before this turns into an even more lengthy rant.....

FrostyFingers

Here here!

Well, I for one have found this threading genuinely informative - I just wish the wider public debate could be so intelligent Brian May . Lobbyists on both sides get sooooo much further if they can talk in rational terms, leaving out emotive language. So, just for examples, comments like that from vicar above aren't really very helpful and show quite a lack of understanding about an awful lot of farmers who are really struggling. (That's not to say that there aren't a lot of very wealthy farmers, but the ones who are massively wealthy/have huge herds can probably cope with TB outbreak far better than a small scale dairy farmer with a tiny herd, for whom an outbreak could literally destroy a lifetime's work).

jelly - you've come up with a really interesting viewpoint, and I think it is important to remember that plenty of those on the anti-cull side of the debate are from rural communities with a good understanding of the struggles of rural life. . One question though, is that I thought I'd read that the trial culls in Somerset and Gloucester are being done through traps and shooting, not free-shooting? I suppose there are arguments both ways for which is more humane (as long as the marksmen are crack shots).

Another parallel I considered last night is the "culling" ('cept we don't call it that) of a wasps nest or a rat infestation. If we take rats (as they're mammals and therefore there is no debate on whether they feel pain) - is dying of internal bleeding really a pleasant way to go? Yet there seems to be little debate on whether its human to "cull" rats? So again, I think the debate needs to come down to HOW we can best manage the badger population, as it seems to be in danger of becoming out of control.

*humane, not human

I agree WhatWill,

The rational debate is really important, and not going batshit crazy at each other means that maybe, just maybe something will be achieved!

I wish discussions like this could stay in the public eye for longer, much like the milk price debacle, where everyone was up in arms for a Jeremy Vine show, then nothing EVER again!

IME, bovine TB is undermining the hard work and ethical practice of small scale farmers who often feel they have no influence on policy making. The fact that the govt is willing to try this is a measure of how much the disease is costing this nation.

I second the rat/possum argument too. NZ have a much less sentimental relationship with the possum, because they were imported (poss for sport? Can't remember). If badgers were not an indigenous species, how would that affect the argument?

But I thought that all animals had to be uniquely tagged so that 'rogue' animals of unknown provenance did not enter the food chain.

Surely therefore it would be simple enough for records to be kept that stated which of these uniquely identifiable animals had been vaccinated and which have not. That should satisfy EU rules.#

Oh dear... I forgot .... a few months ago we were all up in arms because horse and goodness knows what other unidentified animals had indeed entered the food chain illegally. I wonder how they failed to miss those great big yellow plastic tags that should have been attached to the animals ears?

So, because farmers, the meat trade and the EU are incapable of working together to keep the records that the law demands of them so that the vaccinated stock can be differentiated from the unvaccinated - badgers need to be killed.

Shame the EU prevented us using the vaccine for Foot and Mouth too as that would have saved some irreplaceable breed lines and also saved the tax-payer a fortune.

If we are going to pass laws and accept EU directives we really ought to make sure we actually derive the benefits for which the law was actually introduced - by reinforcing it. Then you could be sure of the status of any potentially vaccinated stock.

What is so difficult about that? We can tie up car insurance / ownership / MOT etc on a central database. What is so difficult about trying to tie together this cow identified by this unique number has / not been vaccinated.

Ironic really to think that even the word vaccine derives from the word for a cow.

Farmers DO tag every animal.
That is how they record and test the cattle right now.

The horse meat didnt come from English cattle farmers...what point are you making?

The sooner we stop using cows for food, the better. Farmers only care about the cows because they make money out of them. Badgers are being killed, so cows can be killed for food a little bit later. Barbaric, all of it.

www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2013/08/27/comment-the-badger-cull-is-an-act-of-deceit-and-neglect

Lentil,

That is an interesting link, and it raises many points that have been mentioned on this thread already. I especially agree that badgers should be tested, and that the system of testing cattle needs to be assessed.

But your stand on meat eating in general seems extreme to me, and not really relevant in this instance. I imagine you are also against the dairy industry, cheese milk etc?

Surely it is better to care about an animal solely for monetary purposes than to not care at all?
Healthy animals are a benefit to any farmer. An ill cow does not produce healthy calves, or milk.

I only care about my job because of the money. That doesn't mean that I don't care at all. Or that I am bad at it

From DEFRA:

Many countries have eradicated bTB through the systematic application of the tuberculin skin test alone and the slaughter of all test reactors.

archive.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/farmanimal/diseases/atoz/tb/control/tuberculin.htm

This versus a cull for which there is no scientific justification. This is an entirely political decision.

MLL - this is what we are already doing, and it's just not working. The problem is that no soon as a herd is TB free, along come infected/carrying badgers to start the cycle again. There is no point slaughtering reactors ad infinitum, we'll end up with no cattle (although that would please some no doubt). That boils down to a complete cull of all cattle if you took that to the extreme.......what the badger cull is trying to do is get a balance back - currently because of the over population of badgers there is no let up from re-infection.

We sort of had a grip on bTB and in the 70's it was thought that most of the UK was free, however since the protection of the badger and the corresponding increase in numbers the rates are up - according to one website almost 200,000 cattle have been culled since 2008. I'm not for one minute suggesting that badgers should not be protected, nor would I advocate wholesale slaughter either, but a compromise has to be found, and until efficient vaccines can be developed this looks like it has to be it. Apparently the cost to vaccinate one badger is £3k in Wales - and it has to be repeated annually, so that's hardly efficient either.

Lentil I dispute that farmers only care about cows because they can make money out of them........ it's like saying childminders only like children because they make money out of them!

We love our cows!!!