Latest attack in Syria

[Jammybean]

Just watching BBC news, they were frantically trying to save a toddler who was convulsing . I feel physically sick.

I'm sorry I dont buy it, the UN have investigators just a 20min drive away from where this attack happened looking for chemical weapons

Yes, funny that the "Syrian Government" chooses to commit it's atrocities when the UN weapons inspectors appear, and close to them as well.

Oh - and if we started bombing Syria we are as likely to hit schools etc in error ourselves.

^^^:what JammyBean said. When do we draw the line? And just let him carry on doing as he wishes. The footage this morning if phospherous being used says it all ~

*of

My views are that regardless of what the UK does in relation to Syria (or regardless of what anyone does), they're screwed. The rebels are a mixture of genuine anti-Assad rebels, Al Qaeda operatives, and whoever else seems to be hanging around the region at the moment. Britain gets involved on the side of the "rebels" (though, they did actually get involved a while ago by asking to have the sanctions against giving military supplies to the rebels suspended), they're supporting Al Qaeda and other extremist groups. They support Assad, they get accused of supporting someone who is known to have violated human rights (although the current chemical weapon attack's origins are up for debate). They stay out of it, they get accused of not supporting the US, not supporting human rights and allowing an evil dictator to flourish. BUT, it does seem to be the least-worst option, all things considered.

Syria was going to blow up some time - it was inevitable.

And, if the UK does get involved militarily in Syria, like it did in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, there's no predicting the outcome. It could be short and decisive (like Libya, unlikely) or protracted, messy and expensive (like Afghanistan and Iraq).

Libya isn't over yet, there are still major conflicts. Wherever we in the west spread democracy by the bomb we leave behind chaos. To believe Syria will be any different is madness.

There is no answer to this - it's civil war,

If you went in and took every bomb, gun and parts for making them - they'd still go at it with rocks if need be.

The only thing i'd suggest is negotiate safe passage for refugees to "safe" zones within their own borders and leave the rest to bomb each other to oblivion or until they are ready to negotiate with each other.

As to how to protect safe zones - no answer... they'd be fish in a barrel to any one with an agenda.

Apparently there are the beginnings of dialogue in Egypt.

On topic though, I may be wrong but does it look as though the government was pretty glad of an excuse not to go in, while saving some face/posturing furiously in an attempt to make Assad think twice about doing it again?

Of course Libya isn't over (it probably never will be), but in comparison to the other conflicts, it was regarded to be a "success".

There's way too much meddling by the powers (or lesser powers) in other country's business, e.g. Iranian bullets showing up in conflicts throughout the African continent

Totally agree Timefora - it is a civil war and there will be nothing achieved by getting involved on one side or the other. Unfortunately, the nature of civil war is to totally exterminate the other side. I am not sure they will be able to negotiate anything. There was a moment it was possible in the very beginning of the conflict but not any more. Too much has happened and too fragmented is the rebel movement to present a united front. Who should be negotiating on the rebel side? Impossible. Who is negotiating in Egypt? Links would be useful, but even then I am highly skeptical. There are no examples in history when civil wars get interrupted by the sides where not one is obviously defeated by the other. I am happy to be corrected btw.

'I may be wrong but does it look as though the government was pretty glad of an excuse not to go in'

I think you are right. I can't believe that Cameron could have possibly misjudged MPs' opinion to such an extent, and the talk of bombing before UN reporting etc seems amazing and almost guaranteed to cause the vote to fail.

It would if I did. I do meet normal rational people who vote Labour. But the problem is that everyone here is one of those three And the further to the left they are, as a rule, the less actual real experience of the real world they tend to have. Naice middle class marxists with their university jobs and their public sector pensions, never having spent time outside their bubble of privilege. And it is privilege to travel through your life, going to school, then university, then never leaving academia and imagining that you have any comprehension of real life

You're still banging that one out. It isn't true and yes it does make you look silly.

Public opinion was against it, the Daily Mail was not for it, and this will have harmed the Tories and Cameron with Tory voters. UKIP will benefit as Farage was against it.

www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/find-an-action/syria-global-petition-to-obama-and-putin this is not a petition to go to war but peace talks

www.oxfam.org.uk/get-involved/campaign-with-us/find-an-action/syria-global-petition-to-obama-and-putin

Glad we are sitting this one out. We may even be learning the lessons from Iraq and Afghanistan at last.

I actually thought that this year would be the year that Iran hit the headlines are wasn't Iran only 'a year or so' away from having a nuclear bomb - about a year ago

The UK didn't want to get involved when Sadaam was murdering his own people. It took the threat of lack of oil for them to get involved in Iraq....

I do meet normal rational people who vote Labour. But the problem is that everyone here is one of those three And the further to the left they are, as a rule, the less actual real experience of the real world they tend to have. Naice middle class marxists with their university jobs and their public sector pensions, never having spent time outside their bubble of privilege. And it is privilege to travel through your life, going to school, then university, then never leaving academia and imagining that you have any comprehension of real life

Whoever said that has never been North of Watford. Have they any idea how much the Tories are hated in most parts of the country, outside the south east and rural areas?

But unless you have a clear idea for a post-conflict plan, you're re-running Iraq.

Agree.

Get rid of Assad and then what?

Also agree that UN don't have much power. On the other hand, I think/hope that more goes on behind the scenes than we are told on the news.

Historically, I think displays of western power haven't gone down too well in the middle east.

Wonder what the current UK policy on Syrian refugees is?

'Have they any idea how much the Tories are hated in most parts of the country, outside the south east and rural areas?'

Have people any idea how much the tories are LOVED down here

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying we should never get involved. But what I would like to see is a properly authorised UN mandate for the use of force, a broad international coalition (not US/uk) and lots of boots on the ground. Basically on the scale of Desert Storm.

Only then can you actually do something effective albeit at the cost of human lives.

What I totally didn't support was the idea that we can do anything positive by lobbing a few cruise missiles from a sub parked in the med.

Basically if you are going to do something we do it properly and go the whole hog. Don't fucking half a job it like what was being proposed.

Quite interesting listening to Kerry, who's talking now, and saying they know that attacks were prepared for and exactly from where and when the CW was fired.

All 'new' information to me.

I'm starting to wonder if Cameron is playing a double game here: hold the Parliamentary vote before all the evidence was in the public domain, making MPs less likely to support the vote. He could have waited a few days if he really wanted to gain as much support as possible. Also when I read about the 10 MPs who didn't hear the division bell

He can now say he tried and failed. But the one thing that stops me believing that is the political embarrassment that losing the vote will cause him - probably forever. But perhaps that's still better than the UK going to war.

Seems from the way Kerry is banging on that the Americans will go it alone. Probably planning to lob a few Cruise missiles into the pot

The US doesn't need us in the same way as we would need them. We are tiny, they are huge.

I think we need to make like Scandinavia and Germany and just keep out of it - the fewer parties who are involved in this sort of stuff, perhaps, the better.

It would never have just been about the vote. The government had some kind of plan that they would have implemented either way to get the result they wanted. They have their reasons.