Latest attack in Syria

[Jammybean]

Just watching BBC news, they were frantically trying to save a toddler who was convulsing . I feel physically sick.

[bemybebe]

Very very good points eldritch of course I should have mentioned those proxy wars.

mini I am sorry I do not buy conspiracy theories. There are no angels in this, but I cannot possibly take seriously statements about mainstream Western media re-writing the facts. Sorry. (And are they supposed to sway us "for" or "against" btw?)

[bemybebe]

Agree with niceguy2 (again)

[Kungfutea]

Mini

That's as maybe but the idea that the us is involved or not in Syria because of the Golan heights is laughable and really quite ridiculous.

[merrymouse]

Is there any example in history where a civil war has been ended by another country?

[MiniTheMinx]

Its not conspiracy theory to say that individuals almost always act in their own self-interest. It is not conspiracy to say that corporations, whose main interest is in lining the pockets of shareholders and extending their dominance over the market also act out of self-interest. If you are a free market monkey you would understand this, I'm not and I do, so where is your excuse ?

Adam Smith proposed that rational self-interest and competition can lead to economic prosperity. In a free market economy everyone acts in self interest. Those that have the greatest wealth have the greatest social/political power in which to extend conditions that perpetuate their own dominance and economic prosperity. Whether that be through ownership of the media, lobbying, getting into unelected positions within politics, setting up trusts and charities, controlling huge share portfolios, having controlling interests within the banking sector or going directly into politics.

These individuals be they people or individual institutions/corporations have not only self interest but class interest. The only conspiracy is on us, when we fail to understand the complex social relations and their effect on our own lives and that of others......like the Syrian people because the intentions of others are hidden to us. The conspiracy is on ordinary people who's lives are not worth peanuts. This ignorance makes monkeys out of all us.

I'm reading this at the moment www.amazon.co.uk/The-Atlantic-Its-Enemies-Personal/dp/184614275X?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21 a history of the cold war. This is written by a free market ideologue. I shall have to bleach my brain

[bemybebe]

merry not as far as I know.

[Kungfutea]

British intervention in sierra Leone went well iirc

[EldritchCleavage]

merrymouse, I suspect that has generally happened only where a larger power used the opportunity to invade, e.g. Roman empire invades kingdom where a civil war is being fought over who gets the throne and crushes everyone into submission.

Even in the modern era I am struggling to think of more than one example of anyone intervening successfully, certainly on a short or medium term basis: Nigeria (Biafra), Angola, Cote d'Ivoire, Mozambique, Somalia, Western Sahara, Congo, Chad, Rwanda, all no, and that's just in Africa. The UN is actually doing well in Congo and Somalia apparently, but it is a bitterly long haul and there will have to be a long political process even if there is military victory. France has intervened in Mali, successfully for now, but hopes are not high for the future. The French will leave, and there is every prospect fighting will start again when they do.

One can be more optimistic about Libya though, but there the societal split was less entrenched. Ethiopia/Eritrea played itself out, as did Sudan/South Sudan, until the two sides negotiated.

Lebanon no, Irag and Afghanistan no, Yemen no.

Yugoslavia yes, I suppose, the peacekeeping plus bombing concentrated minds and lo and behold the warring sides were ready to talk at Dayton.

[bemybebe]

"Its not conspiracy theory to say that individuals almost always act in their own self-interest."

Actually I do not agree with this to start with. I am surrounded by wonderful generous people who I can clearly see, balance their own self-interest against that of their family, friends, community and the world as a whole. We do not always agree on everything, but they are good people basing their decisions on their own ideas of morality.

I am a free market monkey yet i see plenty of examples where market forces do not work as well (at least in the short term).

I think your view on humankind is a bit grim.

[bemybebe]

Yugoslavia? I tend to say yes, successful.

[niceguy2]

Sierra Leone/Yugoslavia both had boots on the ground.

The latter was pretty piss poor at first due to the fact it was a UN peacekeeping force that couldn't do anything other than watch helplessly. Only after NATO arrived did things.

The takeaway lesson there seems to be if you want them to stop, you have to have someone in between them willing to shoot back.

Right now everyone has ruled out boots on the ground so we arrive back at the original question. What's the point?

[ElenorRigby]

Syria: Israel Fires Missiles In Mediterranean

Will US and Russian Ships Tangle Off the Syrian Coast?

Marvellous news for the Hawks

[merrymouse]

I think a clear difference with Yugoslavia is that it followed the break up of the soviet union rather than millennia of conflict in the region, and that the countries involved did not have a long history of negative feeling towards the west. There was a political point to coming to the negotiation table with the Europeans. The leader who could make a deal with the west had power. This is not true of Syria.

[WetAugust]

Kosovo was a civil war in FYR ended by NATO intervention when it bombed Serbia.

Afghanistan was also a civil war between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, ended by NATO heavily supporting the Northern Alliance with air support.

[merrymouse]

Not sure that there is really what you could call peace in Afghanistan though.

[EldritchCleavage]

Russia has a naval base in Syria and would be expected to rotate ships in and out of their, so having ships there is not necessarily an escalation on their part.

[WetAugust]

Agreed Merry. But there's no civil war. They have transferred hostilities to what they perceive to be 'the occupying force' - the foreign military stationed there.

As they did in Iraq

As they would wherever we try to put boots on the ground to assist them

[noddyholder]

US not involved? Really?

[ElenorRigby]

The Syrian War What You're Not Being Told

An informative short film that concisely pulls together many of the points I and others have made and one that thus far I dont has been mentioned but that's certainly been on my mind.

[bemybebe]

What exactly from this film we were not told? I actually knew most of this from the 'lying' Western media. That is why this decision is so difficult and why I personally against the proposed strike action.

[Wannabestepfordwife]

Has anyone seen the latest on the mail- really wish I could link.

A rebel defecter has given footage to the New York Times showing the rebels executing 7 soldiers who are stripped, bound and appeared to have been tortured as the soldiers had filmed the rebels raping civilians.

I really don't believe the innocent Syrian civilians would be safer under the rebels than under Assad.

[WetAugust]

Yes Wannabe. it's barbaric.

I hope it makes those who want to support reconsider.

There are no good guys in this.

[Kungfutea]

Wannabe

The NYTimes said the soldiers had filmed themselves looting and raping so the rebels had sentenced them to death.

Never trust the daily fail. Sloppy journalism as always.

[bemybebe]

www.nytimes.com/2013/09/05/world/middleeast/brutality-of-syrian-rebels-pose-dilemma-in-west.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

[bemybebe]

but canoot see anything about 'filming themselves' maybe too early