Trayvon Martin-George Zimmerman trial

[PatPig]

Just kicked off in the US.

Many in the media are determined to define this as a racist killing.

TheIndependent goes with 'young black man Trayvon Martin was killed last year by white Hispanic neighbourhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman.'
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trayvon-martin-america-takes-sides-8651354.html

Under most other circumstances Zimmerman would be described as Hispanic.

But it seems that 'white' trumps Hispanic.

Barack Obama, who had a white mother and black father, is America's 'first black President'.

Zimmerman, who had a white father, Peruvian mother, and having shot a black man, is 'white'.

(It is not clear to me why Hispanics, white or otherwise, should not be racist towards African Americans, but apparently for some racism is a simple white vs black issue, so it is important to define Zimmerman as a white man.)

The trial is being screened live:

www.wftv.com/videos/news/wftv-newscast/v3G5b/

Public opinion, as with votes for Obama, split down racial lines, with black people believing Zimmerman is guilty, and whites much less likely to do so.
www.gallup.com/poll/153776/blacks-nonblacks-hold-sharply-different-views-martin-case.aspx

Well, the circumstances of the killing would certainly seem to indicate that it was a racist killing, wouldn't they?

Zimmerman's previous opinions about black guys, and his determination to follow the unarmed Martin, even when instructed not to.

I think the definition stuff is important in a way. There are many Black Hispanic people (lots of Cubans for example) and many white Hispanic people. There is racism between the two and I saw one TV programme where the Hispanic 'judge' (OK it was Judge Marilyn Milian) was talking about racism between a person of African American descent and a Black man of Hispanic descent. Of course racism is complicated, just as it can be in the UK with African people and Caribbean people sometimes having issues with each other.

Are you saying that:
This murder couldn't be racially motivated or race wasn't a factor?
We should be colour-blind?
People should decide based on facts not their own prejudice?
You just wanted another thread about race/immigration/divisiveness?

Would it be different if a rape trial was divided on gender lines?

I'm not sure what Zimmerman's previous opinions about black guys are. He did organise a campaign to bring the son of a white police officer who attacked a black homeless man to justice however. edition.cnn.com/2012/05/24/justice/florida-teen-shooting

If it had been a black man killing another black man, which is the biggest category of homicides in the US (larger than white on white, black on white, or white on black), it would just be another item on page 19 of the local newspaper.

MrsTerryPratchett, the dominant racial politics in the US and the UK dictates that white people are racist, and non-whites are discriminated against by whites. Therefore in order to suit their convenient boxes, the media/NAACP seek to define Zimmerman as white.

My experience in Asian countries is that there is a lot of anti-black racism, and I believe that it's common also in South America (as well as in Asia) that paler people, who are not 'white', have higher status than those with darker skin.

It is frustrating that, in order to define this as a racist killing, they find it necessary to define Zimmerman as white, which most people would say that he is not.

Clearly many people of Mexican & South American extraction are racist towards blacks, so I don't see the point of the Zimmerman-is-white line of attack, when a Mexican/Peruvian/etc. racist is just as racist as a white racist.

So, you don't mind this being a racially motivated attack if he is a Hispanic man shooting a Black teenager but you mind if he is a Caucasian man shooting a Black teenager? Huh? If someone's ancestors came from Spain, they didn't have any children with indigenous people or people of African descent but had kids with others of the same descent... they are Caucasian. It varies a lot by country in Central and South America.

FWIW, I was taught that there is an issue with racism from white to black because there was prejudice plus power. So, If I kill a man, the Police who look at my case are likely to be men, certainly their bosses will be, the forensics people will probably be men, certainly their bosses will be, my judge will be a man, the people reporting the case may be men, certainly their bosses will be, the structure is gendered so the court is confrontational because the system was set up by men. If a man kills me, the same is not true. Flip man to white and women to black.

But he isn't white.

That's the point.

Not white:

assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1212576.1354571421!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/article-trayvon-4-1203.jpg

Also the evidence shows that black Americans are far more likely to have racial opinions than white Americans. For example, 93% of black people voted for Obama in 2012, whereas 58% of whites voted for Romney. In the OJ Simpson trial, 54% of African Americans believed he was innocent, against only 10% of white.

As you say, white people are taught that they are racist and privileged. I have the jury selection on, and there is a white lady being questioned, and she is asked to describe Trayvon Martin.

She clearly feels uncomfortable about doing so, and describes him as a 'b-bboy of colour', hesitating and stumbling slightly.

Black people on the other hand are more likely to be told that they are the victims of racism. Racism by whites is widely addressed and condemned. Racism by other races not so much.

People of all races will be racist against other races. Whether power goes along with it is not relevant to whether Zimmerman (I can't help thinking of the lyrics to Pawn in their Game, by a certain other Zimmerman, Robert aka Bob here) killed someone for being a different race.

Also the evidence shows that black Americans are far more likely to have racial opinions than white Americans. That would be why every single other president of the US has been white. And male for that matter. Also, the vast majority of Black American vote Democrat, regardless of skin colour.

I assume you are showing me that picture to 'prove' his skin colour is not 'white'. Please read this.

I don't meant to rant but have you any idea of the recent history of the States? The civil rights movement, Strange Fruit, lynchings, bombing of churches, slavery, the civil war? Black people are more likely to be the victim of racism.

I think you feel persecuted. Just because a white man may have killed a black teenager because of race, doesn't actually make you a racist because you are white. I was raised white in a racist country. I was taught things that are racist, by racist people around me and the structure itself. Doesn't mean I go along with this. It's OK to admit that some white people are racists and some people kill based on those prejudices. We are human beings who should condemn any human killing any human.

Is it the word Hispanic you object to, or white? Are you objecting to white people being blamed, or Hispanic? Are you saying only white people can be racists and Zimmerman ain't white so he can't be a racist?

However you choose to define Zuckerman - and I'd go with whatever he says - it is still a racist killing at face value - Trayvon Martin appears to have been killed because he was black.

MrsTerryPratchett, blacks number just under 13% of the United States. Whites are 72%.

Therefore if whites refuse to vote for a black President regardless of merit, the US would never have a black President.

Whereas even if 100% of black people vote for the black candidate, then that won't be enough for him to win without white votes.

In American demography, people are Hispanic, white, black, Asian, and Native American.

In all other contexts Zimmerman would be described as Hispanic.

I am not sure why you have linked to an article on Central America. Zimmerman's mother came from Peru.

I don't feel persecuted. Racism is a complex issue. Blacks in America have many problems within their own communities entirely independent of white influence, entirely black cities like Detroit are disaster zones for example. No doubt young black males are more likely to be regarded as suspicious than little old white ladies, but that is also reflected in respective crime statistics.

The process seems to have been that Trayvon was shot by Zimmerman, people assumed he was a white Jew and Trayvon is clearly black, and therefore it was de facto a racist killing, just like every time a black crook gets beaten up by a white cop it's also racist, whereas if a white crook is beaten up by a white cop it's just a cop being overly enthusiastic. When people found out that Zimmerman was in fact Hispanic, and not a member of the white male George Bush-type supremacy, he was hastily redefined as white Hispanic to fit the ongoing nasty white racist shoots poor black kid narrative.

My guess is Zimmerman was probably pretty quick on the trigger, but it's absurd to say that every time a white man shoots a black man it mus tbe racist. Really ridiculous.

I went to a neigbourhood watch meeting once, and the lady (ethnically Chinese, though culturally English) who was the energy behind the various local neighbourhood watches was clearly paranoid about crime. She said she kept a baseball bat under her bed, and made it clear that she would batter any intruder who came into her house. I don't think that makes her a racist, just someone who has the fear of crime blown up out of proportion (the area we live in has very low crime, and our car insurance fell 25% when we moved here). Likewise Zimmerman by his active membership of a neighbourhood watch was more paranoid than average, but there's nothing at all to suggest he was racist.

"there's nothing at all to suggest he was racist" !!!

So what is the evidence that he was racist?

I was just shocked that you posted such a ridiculous rant as to make it pointless to reply.

wasn't your post ridiculous, isn't this thread of yours ridiculous?

Patpig it was a racially motivated killing. Zimmerman followed Trayvon and shot him simply for being a young black guy in a hooded top. He stereotyped him aa being a black guy up to no good and killed him on that ridiculous basis. Your OP really is disgusting actually and I have no idea what you're trying to achieve with it. Its in poor taste.

According to Wikipedia:

"From January 1, 2011 through February 26, 2012, police were called to The Retreat at Twin Lakes 402 times.[71] During the 18 months preceding the February 26 shooting, Zimmerman called the non-emergency police line seven times. On five of those calls, Zimmerman reported suspicious looking men in the area, but never offered the men's race without first being asked by the dispatcher.[86][87][88] Crimes committed at The Retreat in the year prior to Martin's death included eight burglaries, nine thefts, and one shooting.[89] Twin Lakes residents said there were dozens of reports of attempted break-ins, which had created an atmosphere of fear in their neighborhood."

That seems like quite a lot of crime, for a 260-unit gated community.

So I guess he had good reason to suspicious of young guys generally, and on seeing an unknown young male walking behind the houses, he checked him out.

There is no evidence from any of his numerous calls to the police reporting various suspicious individuals that he was racist or preoccupied with the race of people.

I'm confused by the picture that was posted to 'prove' that Zimmerman isn't white. It isn't possible to guess his ethnicity from the picture. Christine Bleakley always looks Middle Eastern to me, but I'm pretty sure she isn't.

'he checked him out'. That's an amazing way to describe shooting an unarmed innocent young man dead.

The phone call with the dispatcher was recorded. She told Zimmerman to leave it. He refused.

It's not just the killing that was racist, it's the way the police reacted - refusing to even treat it as a crime, let alone a potential murder. Disgraceful assumption by the police FFS that it's OK to go around slaughtering people for the crime of being black. Bad enough in the 60s under segregation, but continuing even today?

He didn't just go and shoot someone in the head, according to the reports, there was a struggle between the two of them and that was when he was shot.

Pursuing someone you believe to be suspicious is not a crime. Nor, in Florida, is shooting someone who has threatened you.

Under Florida law (called 'stand your ground'), with Martin dead, Zimmerman wounded, and saying that he had shot Martin in self defence, the police had nothing to go on.

Pursuing Trayvon Martin was not a crime. Shooting him may have been a crime, it depends on the circumstances.

I cannot believe you are still posting this rubbish patpig. Are you for real???

There was a struggle because a young man was being followed and then threatened with a gun. Im sure you'd struggle if someone was about to shoot you!

The number of police call outs to that area does not give anyone the right to take matters into their own hands, by attacking anyone that they regard as being suspicious.

Who said he was threatened with a gun. It is normal in America to carry a gun. They have a constitutional right to do so. Millions of Americans walk around carrying guns.

What went down prior to Trayvon being shot isn't clear, but saying that he was threatened with a gun is I believe baseless.

He was entitled to follow him, whether he was entitled to shoot him depends on the specific facts of the case, but basically with Trayvon dead, I can't see how it's possible to prove beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not acting in accordance with the law.

Im well aware of the fact that millions of Americans carry guns.

Regardless of whether Trayvon was threatened with a gun or simply threatened, this zimmerman went against police direction and advice. He took things into his own hands by following Trayvon and then killing him. On the
Phone recordrecordings you can hear Trayvon shouting for help. He is clearly scared. You then hear the shots. Trayvon has been gunned down and murdered in cold blood. Zimmerman was the one looking for trouble by following him. He set out to murder this kid. If you think Trayvon deserved it then you are the same as zimmerman in my book - an ignorant, racist and bigoted human being.