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Tia Sharpe case

210 replies

phantomnamechanger · 07/05/2013 20:40

I had been wondering about this case ever since it first hit the headlines last year, as my DD is the same age as Tia
uk.news.yahoo.com/tia-sharp-hazell-took-photo-girls-body-163949011.html#R5Rq9Sd distressing details emerging of this case. poor child. I hope her killer gets a very very very long sentence. What a week, with this and the April Jones case. Sick, sick individuals.

OP posts:
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handcream · 13/05/2013 16:32

But why as society are we allowing men like this to move around doing these things. I suspect as the days go on we will find all sorts of other things about him, other women etc.

I would love to shake these women who allow these men to worm their way into our families.

Kick them out, you are better than that, stop having children without thinking about whether this is a partner for life (I know tin head at the ready) but this is a family with ex partners and swapping of partners all with something to say about this lifestyle.

Yes, I AM judging them......

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LibertineLover · 13/05/2013 16:36

Often these families have a long history of being brought up in relationships that are dysfunctional, so it's learnt behaviour to accept substandard treatment.

Also, we don't yet live in a society where you can tell people who to sleep with, thank god!

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CarpeVinum · 13/05/2013 16:38

Why do women put up with this sort of man - I am genuinely interested

I think it may be a generational thing, a cyclic spiral of chaotic romantic/family set ups.

When I was very young there were refences to some members of the family where the children endured a constant stream of "uncles" and "aunties". These days any waster gets his/her feet under the table for more than 48 hours and they get immediate promotion to step something.

I think the lables (then and now) count because it attempts to impose acceptance, closeness and loyalty (regardless of behavoirs) on the younger members of the household.

Perhaps too it seeks to normalise a turnstile/recycling attidude towards romantic/bed partners and render them "judgement proof" when the actualmparent seemingly has few issues with leavng their children in the care of a relative stranger or failry new relationship with a largely unknown quantaty.

Although in some cases the " brand new step relative" is an known quantity with a rap sheet or messy family history to match, and the kids get left in their care anyway. Like "step" or "auntie/uncle" and other easily handed out promotions were an immunisation against former "mistakes".

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deepfriedsage · 13/05/2013 16:52

So single Mums get the blame for a Man with probable antisocial personality disorder, nice, blame the victims ! Single Mums cant seem to get it right, they either shack up with a cocklodger or need to 'move on' and stop being a sado. Sometimes, apparentlytarred with the same brush, like second class citizens, because a Marriage broke down and they are managing a more challenging life than a Mum in a,marriage. You do realise the majority of Single Mums were married once?

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fromparistoberlin · 13/05/2013 16:53

he has pleaded guilty

please, her mother has suffered enough, whatever we think comments blaming her are inapproriate right now, please

her statement bought tears to my eyes

and she is reading this shit, has read it

she loved her Gran, and she wanted her child to have strong relationship with her Gran

I dont know, but lets not speculate

HE did the crime, not her parents

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handcream · 13/05/2013 17:01

Deep - I am questioning their judgement. Not because they are single Mums but because this has happened.

Is it OK to move your 'partner' from the mother to the grandmother? Knowing his history, his drug dealing, his record with the police.

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fromparistoberlin · 13/05/2013 17:15

handcream

stop, please

her daughter has died, I get your point but on this threads its tasteless IMO

you know she has read what people say about her??? see her quote



'Jack, my eldest son who is three, asked me just this week if Tia was coming home from school soon. I've had to tell him the truth. It made him really cry. I told him that Tia is a star in the sky and now when we go up to say goodnight, we look out of the bedroom window and speak to the star, the one that was bought in Tia's name.


'I breathe for my children. I fear anyone hurting my boys. I fear that if anyone touches my sons or does anything to them, what I might do, I am so scared and angry. I have been so badly hurt by people I don't know and who know nothing of me

'People have said the most terrible things about me as a mother and Tia's life. I can't understand how people who know nothing about somebody can send such awful messages.


'I've been stared at and physically attacked and I know people judge me when they see me buying something nice for my sons.'

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LibertineLover · 13/05/2013 17:36

Yes fromParis you're right, it's easy to forget that the people concerned may read our musings. Poor woman.

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deepfriedsage · 13/05/2013 18:05

Handcream, you were going after the Woman, you didn't ask how a Man can abandon his child for instance?

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gymboywalton · 13/05/2013 20:38

i think the whole thing is a big mess.

but yes-the man who murdered tia is to blame-a person must be genuinely evil to do what he did.

i am really shocked by this case.

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Snazzynewyear · 13/05/2013 21:31

Picking up one of the issues raised on the April Jones case - there posters (including me) were asking whether jurors get counselling or any support after very traumatic cases. Apparently some jurors have been very distressed indeed by the evidence in this case. I have now read elsewhere that there's a partnership between the Samaritans and the courts now that is intended to offer support - article here. I feel very sorry for the jurors in this case, who couldn't possibly be prepared for what has been asked of them.

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gymboywalton · 13/05/2013 21:47

yes
what an awful, awful experience

i also think that a lot of the evidence that was given should not have been reported on
'the public' do not need to know that much detail about it

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DuttyWine · 13/05/2013 21:51

I read he dated her mother briefly for 2 WEEKS years before he got with her grandmother... Her mother went on to have a long term relationship with the man she has other children with and I believe she is still with. Hardly "partner swapping".

Anyway a child was murdered by a horrible man who was solely to blame so why not stop making unhelpful and hurtful judgements about a grieving family who you don't know and let them grieve in peace. I'm disgusted by some of the comments, it's easy to be on your anonymous high horse on an Internet forum... Imagine if this was your child or family? Have a bloody heart.

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creighton · 13/05/2013 23:36

I read that he has committed a wide range of crimes in his 37 years including assault, drug distribution, racist crimes, carrying a dangerous weapon in public. A creature like that should not have been allowed in the house, let alone shacking up with the grandmother/mother/whoever. He should NEVER have been allowed near Tia at all. People will judge families that don't look after their children's best interests.

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greencolorpack · 13/05/2013 23:47

I have a friend on Facebook who is a boy from my DNs school and I realised with shock that he was a friend of Tia Sharp (ie when i looked up Tia Sharp Facebook told me i had one mutual friend) I really hope he isn't accessing this news, even though he probably is... As it is all over the media. Terrible to think her classmates might be able to access these details. :(.

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Thewhingingdefective · 13/05/2013 23:56

I am glad that the man has changed his plea.

This case, and the April Jones case greatly upset me. I have to make a concerted effort not to think too much about them.

The Tia case disturbed me mainly because my mother has a partner that makes me feel uncomfortable and I would never leave my children in his care. I thought of him immediately when I first saw Hazel. Horrid.

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Fefifo · 14/05/2013 00:08

Handcream, I agree with you 100% and then more.

I am absolutely astounded by the way people seem to mitigate any blame from the parents of children in cases where a 'step' parent/grandfather/whatever has managed to inflict terrible suffering on the child like this. This man had HUGE red flags that the mother and grandmother would have been only too aware of and yet they continued to allow him unfettered solo access to this young girl. I am totally bewildered that anyone could think that a parent who allowed such a person solo access to their child should be not only without blame but be sympathised with as if they were totally not at fault themselves for failing in their duty of care towards their own child, when something so bloody predictable as this happens. If I allowed my toddler to play with the stove, I could be sorry as hell if something happened, but I doubt anyone would sympathise with me as some sort of unblamess victim of events.

Deepfriedsage- are you actually for real? You comments are deeply offensive to single mothers. You do actually realise that most single mothers would not dream of introducing a man with a rap sheet such as Hazell's to their children because they are actually capable of deducing the risks associated with men such as these? My mother was a single mother and frankly couldn't give a fuck if anyone judged her for being a 'Sado' for not moving on quickly (erm, who on earth actually does this?) and certainly would of been able to judge any'cocklodgers' as being exactly that, ad not let them within 100 miles of herself or her precious children. The vast, VAST majority of single mothers are actually capable of putting the needs of their children above those of their genitals and I believe you are being incredibly insulting to them to suggest that those who don't do so for any reason other than pure selfishness.

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CarpeVinum · 14/05/2013 00:48

her daughter has died, I get your point but on this threads its tasteless IMO

I am less concerned with "taste" than making a priority of Big Red Flags being noticed and acted upon. Preferable at a community level via peer pressure, cos that it is known to be relatively effective when compared to an over stretched social services.

And what is evident in this case is that it seems there were Big Red Flags that were not waved, leading to this man having unfettered, unsupervised access to a 12 year old girl. With a time frame extensive enough to do unspeakable things to her, kill her and hide her body.

It doesn't follow that I am without compassion for the mother and grandmother in this awful news story. I'm inclined to believe that they didn't make their choices in a vacuum and there may well have been a generational cycle of "fuzzy" boundaries and poverty of risk assessment when it came to prioritising the safety and well being of children in the family influencing their approach.

It certainly doesn't follow that I am blaming "single mothers". They are a large and diverse group. The vast majority of them being extremely cautious (for good reason) about who has any contact, let alone unsupervised contact, with their children. In the main I think those who would be willing to maintain a relationship between themselves, their children and their mother after said mother had begun a sexual relationship with and moved their ex boyfriend in.... in great number would have insisted that contact took place in their own home without overnight stays at granny's when she would be out at work all night, leaving said boyfriend with very "flexible" boundaries all alone with their child. I don't think the sort access to the child allowed was at all typical of the majority of single parent set ups by any stretch of the imagination.

This case is primarily about a young victim of a truly vile crime. Her story, including how she ended up in a position for this to have happened to her, has to be the priority. And how she ended up being left vulnerable and alone with this man should not be swept under the carpet unmentioned and unexamined in the name of compassion. Because there are god knows how many other potential Tia-s out there presently unscathed and if a long hard look at Big Red Flags Blindness and why they shouldn't be ignored gives them a shot at avoiding a similar fate...well then I'm all for it. Because I am not sure what else we can do given that child protection is pushed to its absolute limits in terms of work load in the face of massive under funding.

I am not without sympathy for the adults left behind to mourn. But I think the situation in terms of child protection is pressing enough that their sentiments cannot be a priority over how this happened to a very young girl and I don't think we can afford tasteful silence given the degree of harm so many children are potentially being left exposed to.

I don't think this family needs ripping limb from limb in order for the outcome of their inability to assess risk to strike a chord with a number of other parents who may reassess their own standards in terms of who gets to spend unsupervised time with their children. And some may go on to place more importance on Big Red Flags and less on labels like "step" and "partner" that infer a degree of trust that may not be earned or deserved.

I am under no illusion that a temporary increase of peer pressure will impact well established and "fixed" generational cycles of somewhat chaotic family dynamics. But I do believe there are a good number of people on the fuzzy edges that could be pulled back from similar red flag blindness in the face of social pressure to do so. If you normalise over enthusiastic trust of partners regardless of qualm inducing behaviour, then people on the cusp can be encouraged to see it as non risky. If you de-normalise it then again there will be those on the margins that will be primed to pay attention to red flags.

It's not a huge gain. But for every Tia there are scores of girls who never make the news because their abuse does not end in a trial followed by all major news outlets. They may be alive, but they are not unscathed. Some future victims could be avoided if their parents were influenced to see red flags like the ones noted in this case and insist on a higher degree of caution so they were not left so vulnerable to a person capable of abuse.

I'm open to any other suggestions as to how parents can become more sensitised to take red flags seriously without mentioning the ones that appear to have been ignored in this case. And I am not so fixed in my position that I won't take a different view if there is a way to achieve that without placing yet more of a burden on the family in question. But just to say be quiet "because they have suffered enough", while true, doesn't look like any kind of solution to reduce the risk an awful lot of children are being exposed to thanks to red flag blindness.

It's not that I don't understand, or even share to some degree, your desire not to pour salt on the wounds of a family who probably feel flayed alive with pain. But by the same token I feel there is something inadvertently wrong in saying the actions of family members that may have contributed to creating the opportunity for a man to cause a child's horrific suffering and death must go unmentioned in the name of taste, because their suffering in the now takes precedence over her suffering then.

I understand that this child can't be hurt anymore while her family still can. But it seems to me that it feeds a mindset where the powerless child, even when sexually abused, even murdered, must defer to the sentiments of her adult family members. I am not sure how to articulate it off the cuff. But for me that speaks of the dynamic we have that allows so much abuse to take place. Children are powerless, don't get to make that many of the choices they bear the brunt of living with, there is often a question mark placed over their word and their parents don't always understand the need to make a priority of a child's needs over their own wants. That's a good part of why they are the most vulnerable among us. That power imbalance is what makes them so attractive to many perpetrators as preferred victims.

We aren't exactly helping that power imbalance find a better place to sit when they die a horrible death and we still make priority of protecting the sentiments of the people who may have increased a child's vulnerability via risk blindness. Especially if it is over and above any attempt to raise awareness as to how specific choices of adults within their adult relationships can leave their children so very vulnerable to those with intent to do harm.

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NotQuitePerfect · 14/05/2013 07:43

Very well put CarpeVinum

Thank you , you have helped to clarify a good deal of complex points.

Let's hope he gets at least 35 years today, and more importantly let's hope that 'red flag' situations don't lead to this tragic outcome again.

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dontmeanto · 14/05/2013 07:57

It sickens me that his reason for pleading guilty is to "prevent the family from any more distress."

Like he's some sort of sacrificial martyr.

How good of you. Monster.

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hackmum · 14/05/2013 08:09

"Children are powerless, don't get to make that many of the choices they bear the brunt of living with, there is often a question mark placed over their word and their parents don't always understand the need to make a priority of a child's needs over their own wants."

Yes - exactly how I feel about this case (and so many others).

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fromparistoberlin · 14/05/2013 08:40

"And how she ended up being left vulnerable and alone with this man should not be swept under the carpet unmentioned and unexamined in the name of compassion.


Carpe good post, and you are right. But you have worded your concerns in a far more sensitive and appropriate fashion

I know people are angry and upset, its a horrible story. But when I read her mothjers statement it made me cry

and a BOTH, AND. Its right to learn lessons, but people should also be mindful how their word their feelings

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CarpeVinum · 14/05/2013 09:00

I read he dated her mother briefly for 2 WEEKS years before he got with her grandmother

Many people would give pause if a their mother was in a relationship with a former school friend of theirs. Let alone an ex boyfriend.

We have some taboos for a reason. Instinctively most people react to an issue of "fuzzy boundaries". In this case the mother and grandmother's own "fuzzy boundaries" may have been an issue in the main because it could have left them unable to evaluate the risk factor contained within HIS "fuzzy boundaries", a factor which increases the risk for younger members of the family unit.

It really doesn't matter if the (non platonic) relationship was two minutes long, or two years in that context.

And in this case of all cases said fuzzy boundaries issue has to be considered a potential element in how this man ended up having non platonic encounters with three generations of females from a single family unit. The last being a non consensual savage sexual attack on the youngest and most vulnerable female leading to her murder and post mortem exploitation for the purposes of sexual gratification.

We need to hang on to some taboos. Not all should be rationalised away in the name of tolerance. Some of them are there to help us keep ourselves and our young safer.

If a man potentially has fuzzy boundaries the last thing you want to do is allow him unfettered, unsupervised access to a young girl. But you can't aid people in factoring in that additional risk factor if you dilute a taboo in the name of being "tolerant", "open minded" and "non judgemental".

Not all judgement is of the judgyknickers variety. Some of it is "using good judgement". A capacity we need to better protect ourselves and our most vulnerable family members from an increased risk of harm.

Be open minded, yes. But being open minded does not and should not require us to unzip our heads to the point that our brains fall out and splat on the floor in order to better enable ourselves to overlook and under value significant risk factors when it comes to evaluating risk and access to the powerless and the vulnerable.

As much pain as this family is in this aspect needs highlighting, explained and instinctive, qualm based reactions towards fuzzy boundaries need to be encouraged, not discouraged via minimisation.

I think we need to reflect on the possibility that the heartbroken mother and grandmother in this awful awful story are in their current state of abject pain in part BECAUSE they were exposed to minimisation that led to a quashing of instinctive reactions towards taboos. With qualms removed it is so much harder to effectively and accurately assess additional risks.

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Stompasaurus · 14/05/2013 09:08

Some very interesting details about her family life in this Guardian article (which I warn you also contains distressing stuff about Hazell).

Sounds like the poor child had a shit time all round, what with crack using parents at home and Hazell lurking at her 'second home' Sad

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handcream · 14/05/2013 09:14

Carpe - you put it far far better than I did. We do need to look at the 'fuzzy boundaries'.

How someone can become a partner, step this or that just because they are dating another family member. The grandmother in particular was very defensive about this man up to the very last minute. Calling this man a step gf is just wrong. Maybe calling him this allowed the relaxation of rules about leaving him near the daughter. Especially knowing the red flags of his past behaviour.

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