Toby Young - women don't want most childcare either

[Xenia]

Toby Young in today's Sunday Telegraph magazine Stella argues men do not want even more boring mindless childcare. Well nor do women. So the answer is have good careers as women and then you can avoid that dullness. It is not a gender issue. Clearing up sick is as boring for women as men. Lower earners may well be shunted into that dull stuff and to keep the higher earner man they have to do it but Mr Young needs to know plenty of women don't want to do more childcare either. I always thought two hours a day was pretty good including weekends. Too much more and you'd rather be doing other things.

Dogsandcats, I don't have to "get" my DH to do anything - we both work, we both parent, we both do housework. No persuasion or whatever, just division of labour.

I love your posts reluctantlyCatholic. What works for one woman doesn't work for another- I can't see why it should, or even why it is desirable that it should.
I have never seen myself as 'the second sex' - it seems to intimate it is better to be male and I wouldn't want to be.

Erm...I do judge men who only see their kids for an hour a day.
As I would judge a woman who did the same.
My bil is an example.
And my nephews are paying the price.
They know that daddy would rather be at work/playing golf/at the pub...anywhere but with them.
They are 7 and 8.
Heartbreaking.
I also know women who had a baby "because its expected" or because "its what you do" not because they wanted one.
So, yeah.
Sometimes it is very easy to judge.
So that's why I do.

yes doctrine, the starting point should not be that you have the 'get' your partner to do something.

and why should anyone accept gradual change for an unjust and unequal society?

Sorry haven't read the whole thread-I know. But doesn't it depend totally on the age of the dcs as well. I loved being at home in the first 3 years. I love babies and toddlers, I knew lots of other Mums and like going to the park/toddler groups etc. DH less so. Now they are at school and I find the routine and drudgery stifling. DH OTOH likes pottering around at home, it makes me want to climb the walls.

I agree exotic, i've never felt second to any man. I've also never relied on a man for money, nor would i ever put myself in that position.
We as individuals are the only ones with the power to change aspects of our lives we're not happy with.

fasterstronger, it's not just married women who work dead end jobs to pay the bills. There are lots of men out there doing the same and lots of single people too. I'm a single parent and i don't need thanks from anyone for going out to work, living in a capitalist world it's something we all have to do. If someone isn't happy with their lot in life they alone do have the power to change that.

And those of us who are parents have a responsibility to raise our children to be independent, capable adults regardless of sex.
All children in the uk have equal access to education, what they do with that education is up to them as individuals.

Maybe i'm just lucky that my own parents were/are on a very equal footing with regards to household chores/childcare. I realize this isn't the case for everyone and that those people may have to fight a harder battle. But really women are only treated as 'the second sex' if they allow themselves to be. I'm not saying inequality doesn't exist, of course it does, but it's not something i'd allow in my home. No-one has to put up with being treated as a domestic servant.
Marriage and children are not compulsory. And if a women wants a family and career then she should ensure her partner's on the same page before committing to raising a family together.

acceptable I agree with that and I think we have become a culture of blamers and moaners. There is nothing to stop a woman on a fifth date when man expects woman to cook to say - okay this time and then you do next. Then if they move in have a chat about he does the washing and yo do the cooking or you clean downstairs and he does up or he collected from nursery 3 days a week and you do two or whatever. Women have a responsibility to themselves and the wider society not to acecpt sexist men.

Yes some cultures do force women into serving men, plenty of hard liner Christian and Muslim families follow those sorts of principles in the uK even today - women serve, men earn and girls who want jobs are prevented or discouraged.

Agree with that except your last line.
Dont know about Muslim families,
but in Chrisitian families,in the UK, well the many I know, that is not true.
Which sort of demonination are the Chrisitian families? And how many do you know .

I meant, how many Christian families do you know where the girls are discouraged or prevented from working?

''Women have a responsibility to themselves and the wider society not to accept sexist men."

That pretty much sums it up for me Xenia.

dog I just meant fundamentalist Christians, also orthodox Jews too and traditional Islam - girls who marry at 16 - 18 (I suppose some gypsy communities too) whose lives will be domestic service to men. There are UK Christian groups who take pretty literally those bits of the Bible about women submitting to men as they do in the Lord. We have the Brethern near us who are a fascinating lot - women in head scarves, children tend not to go to university as it might infect you with the outside world, girls taught they will stay at home and care for men and children and do all the housework etc. Society is littered with these sexist arrangements. I have yet find a religion which gives me express sanction to to beat a husband or have 3 husbands a once.

Mainstream society does not support the type of Medieval sexism you describe, Xenia. There is no point getting all hot and bothered about outliers.

But Bonsoir, that's a bit like saying let's not worry about those anti semite nutters who still think the hollocaust was made up...cos you know, they're just outliers!

I feel sorry for the kids tbh. My dd read this article title in the paper and wanted to know why so many parents of either sex didn't want to look after their children.
Apart from saying some people have to work I didn't have an answer. It does seem a strange world when we hear reports like this, parents arguing about who looks after their kids.

I'm not remotely worried about people denying the Holocaust - they are, as you say, nutters. And there are always nutters about - always have been, always will be. Outliers are not the problem.

Xenia's feminism is largely (not always) 1970s feminism - she's constantly fighting battles that have already been won and, when that is pointed out to her, she searches desperately for an outlier to prove her point.

Ah well I disagree bonsoir.

I think complacancy is dangerous. Look at yesterdays elections in the UK. UKIP have done very very well, despite their views on jews, gays, women etc. They're no longer the outliers!

I don't believe those battles have been won at all. I am fortunate to work in quite a non-sexist, family friendly company where I do see male colleagues taking days to look after sick kids/doing the school run and generally there is no culture of presenteeism. There is an active Diversity programme and they offer various child friendly perks to (the mostly male) employees. I was STILL asked about my "work-life" balance at an interview for promotion. A straw poll amongst my colleagues revealed that the men had never been asked such a question.

And women are still woefully underepresented in the technology industry, particularly at board level. My firm has the token VP for HR for example.

Of course the battlers haven't been won. You only have to read threads on mumsnet ad nausem to see the problems women have with lack of economic dependence, men running off, men who don't lift a finger at home etc etc.

I accept things are gradually getting better but they don't get better by complacency and by women on the whole cleaning the loos at home and by always taking on most of the home jobs and down grading their career because a man's is more important.

Working parents of both sexes like being with their children but small children are very hard work and day in day out many parents of both sexes including fathers of course are more than happy to find someone to help with that.

Childcare changes with the age of the child. To just say I hate child care as if you hate doing stuff for DCs from birth to leaving home is daft. Shows what TY knows about it imv.

Broken nights are bad, trailing to and from sports venues/ friends' houses when in their teens is drudgery but have 2 dcs close together and these things are over in a few years. As people live longer you have nearly as much time after they leave home, assuming they do, than before. Then you have some lovely adults who care about you, you enjoy spending time with and you can share life with.

I have just started reading Lean In by Sheryl Sandberg. Women have miles to go before they have anything like equality in the work place.

www.amazon.co.uk/Lean-Women-Work-Will-Lead/dp/0753541629/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1367589796&sr=1-1&keywords=lean+in+sheryl+sandberg

Ahh Sheryl Sandburg. Works for an organisation that refuses to take down images of women being raped, assaulted and beaten, nor will it remove jokes about sexual assault or child abuse because they are "jokes". Pictures of breastfeeding on the other hand are removed fairly quickly because breastfeeding is obscene.

Most women and men don't want to lean in very much, don't earn much and hare happy pottering along on lowish salaries. This applies to men as much as women. If you want to do well whether male or female you tend to need to put in the effort at work.

We certainly are not yet at a point where women can be complacent.

"small children are very hard work"

No they aren't! Unless, I suppose, you are very bad at parenting!

How many children do you actually have, Bonsoir?

I dare you to say that on the next SAHM v WOHM debate on MN.

The SAHMs regularly profess that looking after DC is The Hardest Job In The World!