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Bedroom tax will be costly disaster, says housing chief

999 replies

vivizone · 31/03/2013 06:51

I don't understand how they can implement it. When a council tenant signs the tenancy agreement, if bedroom tax is not mentioned, is it not illegal to implement it at a later date?

I don't see how it is enforceable. Let's say a tenant refuses to pay/can't pay. They then get evicted - wouldn't the council still be obliged to house them after eviction, especially if they have children?

The whole thing is a mess. Why so many changes all at the same time?!

www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/30/bedroom-tax-disaster-housing-chief

Cost-cutting policy will push up benefit bill, cause social disruption and create widespread misery, say critics

Ministers came under new fire over benefit cuts last night as the independent body representing 1,200 English housing associations described the controversial bedroom tax as bad policy and bad economics that risks pushing up the £23bn annual housing benefit bill.

David Orr, chief executive of the National Housing Federation, said the tax would harm the lives of hundreds of thousands of people. It comes into force this week alongside a range of other tax and benefit changes.

"The bedroom tax is one of these once-in-a-generation decisions that is wrong in every respect," he said. "It's bad policy, it's bad economics, it's bad for hundreds of thousands of ordinary people whose lives will be made difficult for no benefit ? and I think it's about to become profoundly bad politics."

His intervention came as opponents launched nationwide protests against the tax, which will hit 660,000 households with each losing an estimated average of £14 a week.

Crowds gathered in London's Trafalgar Square yesterday to protest against the measure, and simultaneous protests were being held in towns and cities across the UK. One protester, Sue Carter, 58, from Waltham Forest, told the Observer: "I'm a working single parent with a tiny boxroom and now I'm faced with the choice between food, heat or paying the bedroom tax. People have looked after their homes, improved them ? why should they be turfed out?"

Under the scheme, which is introduced tomorrow, people in social housing with one spare bedroom will have their housing benefit cut by 14%, while those with two or more unoccupied rooms will see it slashed by 25%.

Ministers say the tax, which David Cameron calls the "spare room subsidy", will encourage people to move to smaller properties and save around £480m a year from the spiralling housing benefit bill. But critics such as the National Housing Federation (NHF) argue that as well as causing social disruption, the move risks increasing costs to taxpayers because a shortage of smaller social housing properties may force many people to downsize into the more expensive private rented sector.

The federation's warnings came as charities said the combination of benefit cuts and tax rises coming in from this week will amount to a £2.3bn hit on family finances.

Labour said analysis of official figures showed average families would be £891 worse off in the new tax year as the changes ? including those to tax credits and housing benefits ? begin to bite.

Research by the NHF says that while there are currently 180,000 households that are "underoccupying two-bedroom homes", there are far fewer smaller properties in the social housing sector available to move into. Last year only 85,000 one-bedroom homes became available. The federation has calculated that if all those available places were taken up by people moving as a result of the "bedroom tax", the remaining 95,000 households would be faced with the choice of staying put and taking a cut in income, or renting a home in the private sector.

If all 95,000 moved into the private sector, it says the cost of housing benefit would increase by £143m, and by millions more if others among the remaining 480,000 affected chose to rent privately.

As well as the move on spare bedrooms, council tax benefit will be replaced from this week by a new system that will be run by English local authorities but on 10% less funding. Pensioners will be protected under the changes but, as a result, it is feared there will be a bigger burden on poor working-age adults. Restrictions on the uprating of a number of welfare payments will also hit millions of households, homelessness charity Crisis has warned.

Chief executive Leslie Morphy said: "Our poorest households face a bleak April as they struggle to budget for all these cuts coming at once. People are already cutting back on the essentials of food and heating but there is only so much they can do.

"The result will be misery ? cold rooms, longer queues at food banks, broken families, missed rent payments and yet more people facing homelessness ? devastating for those directly affected, but bad for us all."

A Department for Work and Pensions spokesman said: "Our welfare reforms will improve the lives of some of the poorest families in our communities, with universal credit simplifying the complex myriad of benefits and making three million people better off. And by next year, we will have taken two million of the lowest earners out of paying tax altogether."

Crisis argues that homelessness is set to rise dramatically. This winter has already seen a rise of 31% in the numbers of rough sleepers across the country and a 20% rise in people seeking help with homelessness from their local authority in the past two years, according to Crisis.

ChartiesCharities are also concerned that the government-funded network of homelessness advisers in England is to be scrapped. The team of regional advisers and rough sleeper and youth specialists which have provided councils with expert guidance on meeting statutory homelessness duties since 2007 will be disbanded just as the bedroom tax comes in. Also being scrapped are the crisis loans and community care grants which provided a lifeline for people in financial crisis who needed essentials when moving to a new home.

Shadow chancellor Ed Balls said: "This is the week when the whole country will see whose side David Cameron and George Osborne are really on and who is paying the price for their economic failure."

OP posts:
MiniTheMinx · 01/04/2013 18:32

Just don't get Xenia started on poverty and IQ I may have to throw a hamburger at her.

Xenia · 01/04/2013 18:36

Clever people tend to have children a bit less clever - that is how IQ works. I suppose there is an argument that when you have the very best social mobility on the planet then those a the bottom though ultimately are those who are not bright enough to do any better - in other words you have bee so successful in letting everyone clever get through that that remains will not be able to move up and those up are less likely to move down but I do not suggest we are at that point yet.

The left who start threads about underused social housing may prefer threads where a load of low paid marxists can pat each other on the back but the bottom line is that most people in the country think social housing should be fully utilised. I would not even have excluded the old from it. If you want state subsidy then it is for the bed rooms you need not to give you a load of spare bed rooms when there are families cramped in one or two rooms waiting for social housing until the 65 year old turns 104 and eventually dies so their 4 bed council house can come back into the housing stock.

The principle is excellent and it is amazing no government in the past has been able to suggest such a wise provision.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 01/04/2013 18:36

The reason most Polish or Eastern Europeans are answering cleaning job calls is because they are prepared to live in less than decent conditions, 2/3/4 unrelated people to a room, working for BELOW the NMW, sending money home to their families.

I have lots of Polish friends, my area has a huge Polish community, and this is the truth.

They are willing to do these jobs because they don't NEED to support their entire family in the UK, at UK prices.

And many of them have admitted that if their families and children were here in the UK with them, they themselves would be unable to do these jobs.

Pay a living wage, and every 'lazy' person on benefits would be clamouring for a job. Not that most of them aren't - because they ARE. 200+ applicant for every NMW job here. They are really 'lazy' and wanting to live off other people, aren't they?

And as for the 2.8 million figure for unemployment - not only does it NOT include anyone on 'workfare' programmes, still receiving JSA, BUT it also doesn't count those that are 'economically inactive' like, say, the partner on a joint JSA claim that might ALSO be looking for work, or the unemployed partner of someone who IS working but claiming TC's, or the unemployed partner of someone earning enough not to have recourse to benefits that might also be looking for work.

The unemployment figures are massages so much that they don't even show half the true figure.

IneedAsockamnesty · 01/04/2013 18:39

Mini why did you do that???

Just why. You so knew what was going to happen.

FasterStronger · 01/04/2013 18:42

couthy - so most polish people in the UK are working for less than minimum wage?

i.e. illegally.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 01/04/2013 18:46

IDS making it easier to be self employed under UC?!

Have you even read the Welfare Reform Bill, or the Universal Credit Policy Briefing notes?

If you are SE when UC starts, and have already started your business, and have been running for a year already, then you will be expected to make the NMW for every hour you declare having worked.

You need to be earning a minimum of 35 X £6.19 / hour EVERY week. And capital expenditure is not accounted for. So if you have to buy a lot of stock one month, and it leaves you with less than 35 hrs a week @ NMW as earnings, you will be subject to sanctions on your UC.

This is meant to be assessed every month, in real time, using figures from HMRC.

And that's going to make it easier to set up a small business?!

flatbread · 01/04/2013 18:46

Huh? I pay £10 a hour to a Polish cleaner. How is that not a decent hourly wage?

YellowandGreenandRedandBlue · 01/04/2013 18:46

I just love the comment it is amazing no government in the past has been able to suggest such a wise provision Grin

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 01/04/2013 18:58

Xenia, I have told you that us bollocks before, and I'll tell you that's bollocks again.

Plenty of poor children are exceedingly clever. The reason they can't do so much with that is because they haven't had the advantages that private schooling and outside tuition would confer upon them.

I'm a poor benefit claimant. So how is it that my son was recently assessed by his school SenCo on a non-verbal reasoning IQ test to be above the 99th Centile? He has an IQ of 134 at just under 11yo.

She also did a BPVS test on him, which showed that he was on the 96th Centile in that test too.

But of course, it's not possible for poor, feckless benefits claimants to breed clever DC's, is it...?

Ugh, why do I always rise to Xenia's bait on this one?!

Sorry for the distraction to the discussion!

(And anyone who know me posting on here knows I'm not 'boasting' about my DC's, for equalities sake, I also have one DC with LD's, one who is academically low to average, and one who the outcome is uncertain for as yet, and that all 3 of these DC's have SN's and additional medical needs and disabilities).

Dawndonna · 01/04/2013 19:00

Xenia In fact, it is genetically impossible for an intelligent couple to have a child less intelligent than them. Obviously discounting disabilities.

Oh, and you've missed the bit on the thread about the disabled being penalised for having an adapted property, the disabled being penalised for being married and some people being penalised for having disabled children. But hey ho, it is amazing no government in the past has been able to suggest such a wise provision, isn't it!

MiniTheMinx · 01/04/2013 19:01

It's all so predictable pixie

Mrsdavidcaruso · 01/04/2013 19:05

so Xenia you think that my 82 year old father who is STILL working and paying tax on his wages AND pension and who pays his rent in full without HB should just pack up and move so other people can have the home that he has lived in for 30 years even though that family may include parents who have never worked or have increased their families even when they know they cant support them without state aid.

Why should he

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 01/04/2013 19:05

Faster - I have no idea of proportion, but I have 6 friends in my immediate area that do cash in hand cleaning jobs / gardening / handyman jobs for far less than NMW - but for far MORE than they could earn in Poland.

Also, there are many that even when legally employed, not working cash in hand, that will work on illegal shift patterns without the legally required 12 hours break between shifts, that will work through their breaks doing an 8 hour shift with no linch etc. ,do overtime so they are working 14+ days straight etc.

Not so many permanently resident in the UK, with families that they wish to spend time with, that would be willing to accept those terms of employment.

Many will not work their days off as overtime (and rightly so too), many will insist on the legal amount of hours between shifts, and will insist on their legal breaks.

I'm by no means saying all, as that would be far too much of a sweeping generalisation, but quite a few (more than half) of my Polish acquaintances are living like that, and accepting those employment terms.

flatbread · 01/04/2013 19:14

Faster - I have no idea of proportion, but I have 6 friends in my immediate area that do cash in hand cleaning jobs / gardening / handyman jobs for far less than NMW - but for far MORE than they could earn in Poland

Like I said, I pay £10 an hour to my Polish cleaner. Everyone I know pays the same or more. We used to pay £12 in the past to another Polish cleaner, who was brilliant.

CouthySaysEatChoccyEggs · 01/04/2013 19:18

Flatbread - YOU may pay £10/hr to a cleaner from Poland, but if she gets no other work that week, then that £10 is all she has to live off.

YOUR cleaner is obviously very successful. Do you know if she pays Tax & NI?

I for one would not be willing to take on ANY paid work (even if it were possible, which it currently isn't), without declaring every penny to the DWP & HMRC. This, though, would mean that my IS would drop by an equal amount to that earnt after the first £20.

If I then earnt over £91 in any given week, my IS would stop. It can then take a minimum of 6 weeks to restart that claim. By which time you could be 6 weeks behind with your rent too, as your HB stops automatically if your IS / JSA does.

Even if you are still 'entitled' to some of your rent paid by HB due to a low income in work, when you start work, it automatically takes you off your IS / JSA, which automatically suspends your HB claim.

You then have to fill in a Change of Circumstances form, which can take more than 12 weeks to reassess (meant to be 6, but it's been 12 min in my area for YEARS due to the local prevalence of zero hours contracts which requires weekly CoC forms...)

By the time you have been unable to afford your rent for 3 months+, your HA (Council doesn't do this, but HA's can and do) get a Notice of Seeking Possession order slapped on you.

Which means that if you default on even ONE WEEK'S rent, even by just being £1 short, you WILL be evicted.

And the LA then has no duty to house YOU, only your DC's (make of that what you will), and it becomes slightly easier to see why people won't start a NMW job on a zero hours contract (which is loaded in the favour of the employer, NOT the employee...), when it will almost certainly lose them their house...

I nearly did, last time I worked, because the LA's CoC forms weren't processed quickly enough for me in my zero hours contract job, different hours worked each week, never mind month, and they hasn't reassessed the previous CoC form before I'd put the next TWO in. So I never knew how much rent I needed to pay to make up the shortfall from HB.

I ended up in over £1,000 debt (now paid off thankfully, and my NOSP lifted, thank fuck).

Xenia · 01/04/2013 19:19

Yes, Mrs, why should age mean that social housing is clogged up for younger people who need the space?

Exceptions have been made for some categories, some disabled.

It is a good policy, long needed.

nailak · 01/04/2013 19:22

I know many people permanently resident in UK which do those shift patterns, taxi drivers, shop workers, security gaurds regularly work 14 days straight ime, those working for small businesses, restaurants, take aways, it is quite common ime.

My mums partner is polish and believe it or not him and many of his friends work legally and pay tax, and earn above min wage, although when they first came to the country they did live in shared house, multiple people to one room, they quickly moved on. They managed to move on while sending money to kids back home, and now they manage to pay rent bills, car insurance, petrol, etc here and send money to kids, and regularly visit kids, but now they would consider their lives as being in uk not in poland.

Mrsdavidcaruso · 01/04/2013 19:28

and why the FUCK should age mean that people are thrown out of the house they have lived in for a great many years.

Dawndonna · 01/04/2013 19:29

Xenia Some disabled. Not all, just some. There are others who need it and are not getting it, other disabled people, people who have had to flee domestic violence, people who have ended up where they are with no choices.

flatbread · 01/04/2013 19:30

Flatbread - YOU may pay £10/hr to a cleaner from Poland, but if she gets no other work that week, then that £10 is all she has to live off

I think you are clutching at straws. As far as I know, my cleaner works two jobs, a part-time steady income job and self-employed cleaning. Her cleaning clientele is growing and soon she will be able to set-up her own business employing other cleaners.

You don't have to pay NI or income tax for less than £8k or so, whatever is the minimum wage threshold for the year. I think from this year it is £10k.

Nothing in life is risk-free or hassle free. I just don't get the defeatist and entitlement attitude here.

IneedAsockamnesty · 01/04/2013 19:36

Xenia, no they haven't no exemptions have been made for any 'disabled' (your phrase not mine)

So far the only exemptions are pensioners and convicted sex offenders.

The ONLY consideration towards any disabled people is that disabled children must have a possible exemption looked at if the parent asks the LA to but nowhere does it say they have to be made exempt.

skinnywitch · 01/04/2013 19:39

Sounds just like my cleaner, flatbread, she's doing great!

And yes, £10K tax free - goes some way towards replacing the 10p tax rate Brown abolished in 2007.

pollypandemonium · 01/04/2013 19:44

flatbread you may be able to earn tax free but you still have to declare it to the taxman. Have you checked whether your cleaner is declaring hers? If not you may be employing someone illegally.

IneedAsockamnesty · 01/04/2013 19:48

I got a letter recently saying any one I employ personally like cleaners at home I apparently have to do something of the real time thing. Not really sure exactly what because I just passed it onto the house keeper as she deals with the household accounts.

IneedAsockamnesty · 01/04/2013 19:49

But either way its bugger all to do with under occupancy