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Have we got immigrant paranoia?

276 replies

Jac1978 · 25/03/2013 10:20

David Cameron is vowing to end benefits for EU migrants after six months. Around half a million migrants come into the UK every year, one in five from the EU but half return home every year. Only 6% of benefits claimants are foreign born - is Cameron wrongly targetting a minority and just responding to media paranoia about immigrants or is it a real problem and is he right to make things harder for them? Are we blind to the benefits of immigration? Are Brits who emigrate abroad any better?

OP posts:
alemci · 25/03/2013 20:12

well said Flat Pack. That is what I was trying to get at. Please lets deal with who is here now first. Get them housed and employed then see if we need any more people.

Talkinpeace · 25/03/2013 20:25

Probably
I suspect cases like mine are why they clamped down on people like you Wink

Alemci
And who decides if we "need any more"

  • the farmers who cannot get English people to pick their veg
  • the NHS who cannot find English people to swab the toilets
  • the schools who cannot recruit enough UK teachers willing to live in shared bedsits to work in London schools
  • the engineering companies who cannot find the skills they need in this country

or a bunch of knee jerk Daily Mail journalists who will then moan that hospitals are dirty and veg not picked?

bulletproofgerbil · 25/03/2013 21:02

Was going to stick my two-penneth in but am wondering if there's any reason that OP hasn't been back on this thread after starting it?

Chipstick10 · 25/03/2013 21:08

It's very easy to label someone a racist just because they are heartily sick of not being able to discuss immigration for fear of being labeled a racist. Then media wheel out vicars and we are told we are using dangerous language and are not being charitable. Where does it end? My best friend is awaiting rehousing and the Kurds next door to her have already been rehomed. She is very bitter and so am I.

PhylisStein · 25/03/2013 21:15

The rules for European economic migrants with regard to healthcare, housing and other benefits such as JSA are IDENTICAL to those for British born long term residents. Anything else would be illegal and Cameron would be up in front of European court pdq if he treated anyone unfairly. The 'measures' announced are the same as are already in place for all of us. This is only hot air and spin - nothing new or different has changed at all today.

WidowWadman · 25/03/2013 21:22

phylis well, yes. He hasn't announced anything which actually is different to the existing policies. It's the rhetoric, that's the problem.

That might be just me, although there's a couple more posters on this thread, who said they feel similar - there is a change, and a feeling of not being welcome, which is growing.

His speech, as well as the talk from leaders of all other parties, too, is full of anti-immigration cliches, and panders to xenophobes.

maisiejoe123 · 25/03/2013 21:24

Phylis - and I think that is the issue. Who is paying for the healthcare, housing, education of people who have just arrived. If you have been waiting on a council house waiting list for years will you feel happy that you are moving further down the list as more and more people become a priority?

And as for people who say that Romania has a free education system - have they been there and seen what it is like? Really - is it just like ours......

PhylisStein · 25/03/2013 21:26

I bet there aren't queues for tickets to Romania because there schools are so fab.

PhylisStein · 25/03/2013 21:29

The only options if you want to change the rules are:

  1. Make the EU reverse its migration policy
  2. Leave the EU

On the other hand we could shut the door firmly to non-EU immigrants but we have reciprocal arrangements with many of them too!

maisiejoe123 · 25/03/2013 21:31

We live near an area that has had huge immigration issues and they havent been tackled well. We are a very tolerant nation who bend over backwards to help everyone. Problem is that not everyone wants to help back.

There are some stats somewhere I am sure (and lots on this post are using stats!) saying that out of the 60,000 Romanians currently in the UK officially -there is a large % that have been arrested for minor and major crimes. Or have I got that all wrong....

If the EU borders are opening then we need to state that if you are convicted of a crime (whatever that is) you are immediately deported back to the country of orgin and not allowed to return. And that should be a rule across the whole of the EU. If I lived in Italy and I was convicted of a crime - out I go...

I cannot believe some would believe it is Ok to come to this country, committ a crime and then be allowed to stay here...

NishiNoUsagi · 25/03/2013 21:51

Orphadeus "As 11% of the population in the UK was born abroad, it would appear someone is lying."

Probably no-one's lying. My son was born overseas, and he's British. Doubt he's the only case. Just as ethnicity=/=nationality, "born outside Britain" can still be British (in my son's case, as born to a British mother.) Does that help?

maisiejoe123 "Surely - a homeless family landing at Heathrow from say Bulgaria will go to the top of the housing ladder whether that be a hostel or something similar. They are liternally homeless or will they be turned away because they have no way of supporting themselves."

As per my previous post, housing is decided on a points system. You don't get any points for being a refugee/foreign/immigrant. At all. They would not go to the top of a housing ladder. They probably would go to a hostel, whereas a British person on the waiting list might not, as they would prefer to stay, for eg in an overcrowded family home or other less than ideal situation, than go to a hostel which might be a bit rundown, not comfortable to live or cramped. They at least (in that situation) have that choice. The homeless family from Bulgaria wouldn't.

Local to me, there was a Romanian family (yes, family, with young children) living in a local park, in a tent, in the middle of winter. Some fucking housing ladder that is Sad

NishiNoUsagi · 25/03/2013 21:56

PhylisStein Your post at Mon 25-Mar-13 21:15:22 - Thank god! I was starting to wonder if I was the only person who'd noticed this!!

RalucaV · 25/03/2013 22:02

Let me just add my two pennies worth. I'm not an immigrant in the UK, although I had been thinking about going there for a couple of years, but that was before the crisis. I live in the Czech Republic and want to give you a different perspective, seeing it as a person from this Eastern Eurepean country.

In 1990's Czech people were drunk with freedom and possibilities and many of them wished to go abroad to the afore forbidden West to work and learn the language. However, it was impossible to do it legally. The only legal possibility was to come as au pairs. Therefore many people who wanted to work, did the worst kind of jobs because they were the only jobs they could get illegally. Law graduates worked as au pairs and engineers worked as cleaners because even though the work was something they would have never done at home, it paid many times more than their professional jobs back home. They were risking deportation etc.
During the same period of time, loads of illegal immigrants from Russia, Ucraine and other countries came to our country for a change. And they still do come to do the same kind of jobs the Czech used to do or still do in the UK. So it is in fact a kind of a vicious circle and we are dealing with many similar problems like any other EU country, but on a smaller scale than the UK, of course.

However, many of the Czech work-immigrants came back home later or they became successful in their profession (especially in construction) and stayed in the UK. Only a few stayed for good because they got married or have children with a UK citizen and therefore decided to make the UK their new home. BTW. NHS is one of the factors why they keep coming back. Many Czechs living in the UK greatly complain about it and prefer the Czech Health system. To give you an example, pregnant women in the CZ routinely have several ultrasound scans during their pregnancy and several other tests like diabetes, genetic disease scans etc. Whereas this is virtually non-existent in the UK, as you might probably confirm. (I'm not 100% sure, correct me, if I'm wrong.)

Finally, in 2007 we were allowed to come to work without any restrictions. This didn't make all the Czechs suddenly change their mind, pack up and move to the UK. Not all people (now I mean it in general for all countries and people) are actually able to move for work because most people are very much attached to their place of birth and their families and friends at home. So in 2007, it only made things easier, more transparent and legal. Besides, as someone above mentioned, most of the people who wanted to have foreign work or study experience or move there because they simply like the country are already there and there was no disastrous wave of Czech, Polish etc. immigrants in 2007 as the media in the UK had believed just like now.

In my opinion, these anti-immigrant feelings are caused by the economic crisis that Europe is still undergoing and the inability of governments in the EU to do something about it. Unemployment is rising everywhere and people have to watch their budgets more carefully than they used to do. The immigrants that were originally so useful are suddenly seen as thieves of jobs that no one wanted to do ten years ago. In my country, people haven't started to blame the immigrants yet, it's the unemployed now, but I'm sure it's going to be the same as in the UK sooner or later because immigrants keep coming and jobs are scarcer and scarcer.

Talkinpeace · 25/03/2013 22:03

I'd seen it.
The housing system is STRICTLY points. Generally on councils' websites : easy to check the rules.
BUT
there is no housing shortage - there are just hundreds of thousands of empty homes because offshore investors save money by keeping properties empty.

MiniTheMinx · 25/03/2013 22:05

"What's happening is that after 30 years of neo-liberalism, the shit is finally hitting the fan

Blaming immigrants, the poor, the jobless, the benefits claimants - this is a red herring. It's a distraction. The government wants people to turn inwards and fight each other rather than hold the real culprits to account. Don't fall for it"

^ This, YY

"However the comparison between the UK and Germany has little value because migrants don't distribute themselves evenly across the UK. 90% of all migrants who arrived since 2001 stayed in South-East England. 70% stayed in London"

FlatPack, why do they not distribute themselves across the UK?

because we have a London centric economy with something like 58% of GDP coming from the south east. Why is that?

Getting back to the point about neo-liberalism, it wasn't labour that opened the flood gates, beats me why they feel the need to apologise. It was Thatcher and the reason came down to her obsession with weakening the power of workers. More workers arriving from abroad and a growing number of casualties from her campaign of terror against UK industries did just that.

What makes me so sick when I hear Scameron, is the knowledge that "Brits" are encouraged towards nationalism through a steady stream of propaganda whilst he and his class care not a jot for the nation. They are waging a class war against the poor. They and their class have class solidarity whilst the rest of us fight over the scraps and turn on our fellow workers/ordinary working people.

RalucaV · 25/03/2013 22:07

maisiejoe123,

are you sure they are Romanians and not Romanian gypsies? Because that's a different group of people altogether. I guess I might be called racist now, but this ethnicity is the major source of petty crime and recipients of dole and child allowances all over Eastern Europe. Unfortunatelly, they just go where they get more for doing nothing and the social systems in the EU allow this abuse and waste of funds.

RalucaV · 25/03/2013 22:12

MiniTheMinx

I heartily agree. It's a good description of what is happening all over Europe, though, not only the UK.

sittinginthesun · 25/03/2013 22:19

What Mini said.

MiniTheMinx · 25/03/2013 22:20

The Romanian Gypsies are perhaps the last of all ethnicities to be quite so actively discriminated against. Sad

"Gypsies, or Roma, enjoyed a degree of protection under communist rule in Eastern Europe. But in recent years, Gypsies have become targets of police brutality and right-wing extremism. They have been beaten to death in Slovakia and set on fire in the Czech Republic.

"The degree of prejudice against the Roma is incredible," said Dimitrina Petrova, director of the European Roman Rights Center, which represents an estimated three million to six million Gypsies living on the continent. "There's been a disturbing rise in civilian violence against Roma in Eastern Europe"

articles.philly.com/2000-07-05/news/25608874_1_gypsies-dimitrina-petrova-eastern-europe

Certain EE countries should never have been granted EU membership because of their record on human rights.......but of course Roma are not fashionable cause so they can be overlooked.

Chipstick10 · 25/03/2013 22:22

Anytime anyone from any party tries to ta kle immigration they are accused of scaremongering or being racist. The fact is most governments hands are tied.

MiniTheMinx · 25/03/2013 22:25

If anyone reads the above.......please take note "Right wing extremism" nationalism leads to abuse and that leads to defection and escape, where would we have these people run. Under socialism the situation was only slightly better for the Roma but they did receive some state help and the drive was towards assimilation rather than outright torture and marginalisation.

I agree with everyone who says the problem is economic not just political.

When the riots start as I am sure they will and more people are homeless and more families are feeding from the foodbank........I hope we all know where the blame lies and it isn't with working class people whatever the nationality.

Talkinpeace · 25/03/2013 22:27

"tackle immigration"
I'm yet to understand why it needs to be tackled

  • there is no housing shortage that could not be eradicated in months with a land tax
  • there is only a shortage of jobs that English people (molly coddled with benefits) think they are entitled to
  • there is no shortage of manual jobs, generally oud doors
  • there is a shortage of people to work in the NHS, schools and offices
MOH100 · 25/03/2013 22:28

Do you know which nationality are the biggest unauthorised users of the NHS, or health tourists as the tabloids would call them? People from the USA. They come over here for the operations they can't afford at home. Seemingly the cost of European immigrants is a drop in the ocean compared with what Americans cost the NHS.

Talkinpeace · 25/03/2013 22:30

Moh
do you have a link for that - as the NHS bod on the Radio 4 news today said that they do not have the data ....

I know some Americans come here for some care, but generally covered by their travel insurance

RalucaV · 25/03/2013 22:34

MiniTheMinx

I guarantee you that you would change your mind at once have you had direct experience with them as most people in Eastern Europe have :( I pity their kids because their families don't support or even sabotage their education, thus robbing them of their only chance to break the circle of poverty and crime.

The protection of Gypsies during the Communist rule consisted in the genaral obligation to work (everyone had to work or you went to jail) which gave them certain rules to live by and respect by the majority. However, when we achieved freedom from Communist rule, their was no more obligation to work, they got money from the social system for free and they learned very quickly to use it and abuse it.

Racist attacks are always terrible and there's no excuse for them, but it's imho the result of unresolved crime problems withing the Gypsy community. No one wants to be regularly robbed by their neighbours who laugh into their faces, if they call the police.

There will always be people that abuse social systems and it doesn't matter if they are English, Gypsy or Czech. Europe can't afford to waste so much money that bring no positive effect for society anymore. We have to be simply more careful to whom and on what conditions we give.

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